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Technics direct drive turntables
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote: In article , MiNe 109 wrote: In article , "David Looser" wrote: That coincided with record companies no longer accepting returns of unsold lps. Shops abandoned the medium rather take the risk. *People* abandoned the medium because the CD was taking over - that lead to unsold LPs. Had the LP still be selling well there wouldn't have been unsold LPs to return. *People* abandoned the medium because they couldn't find them in stores. This happened quickly in the US. Can't comment on the US as I've never lived there. My recollection was that for a number of years there were more LPs in the shops I went into than CDs. The LPs were also distinctly cheaper. And I used to find I often had to order a CD and wait a couple of weeks. TBH The only reason I didn't just buy what I wanted via mail from someone like Covent Garden or Windows (no, not Bill Gates. :-) ) was a wish to put the trade the way of a local shop. More recently the local shop said it simply wasn't practical for them or order indivudual CDs any more as all the wholesalers, etc, insisted on large 'minimum order' numbers that meant they either had to buy things they didn't want, or you had to wait for ages. They amagamated with the local shop that sold art supplies, instruments, etc, a while later. They are now gone entirely. A great shame. So far as I am concerned in large part they were a victim of how the large music biz treated them. The likes of EMI don't really care so far as I can see. Suits them OK to have CDs flogged via the web and the CI and duck VAT. That way they just send shiploads to one or two 'retailers' rather than supply many small shops. Record companies could require minimum orders, so a flop title would be a disaster for the shop if returns weren't accepted. Both my own experience and reports I've read written by dealers say that 1) The companies made it difficult for them to return faulty LPs and recover the money. 2) CDs simply didn't get returned to the shop as faulty as often as an LP did. Particularly for things like classical music rather than the more 'here today and forgotten tomorrow' types of chart pop. 3) Higher markup on CDs at the time. So no contest so far as the shop was concerned. No returns is definitely an advantage. The labels also didn't like independent pressing plant operators for a variety of reasons: dodgy business practices ("breakage" quotas), etc. I had sympathy for small music shops. The big music companies made their life very difficult. Insisting they had to place orders for many items. Then refusing to deal with faulty returns quickly and conveniently (from the shop's POV). In effect, each LP returned to the shop became a 'long term loan' from the shop to the music company who made the LP. Leaving the shop with all the hassle. Things were tough for small independent shops in the US as well. Advertising support was another way for distributors to influence retailers that favored chains over small shops. Stephen |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote in message Yes, but I bet many more BDs will be rented rather than bought for a while yet. I think this is due to a change in how the market is working, not any reflection on BD technical benefits. Absolutely. While many DVDs look better than ever on my new 60" HD set, the slight extra cost for BD as opposed to DVD was easy to swallow. No good spoiling the ship for a hap'orth of tar - I project my movies (72 and 100 inch wide screens - no idea about the diagonals) and every little bit of extra resolution counts, so BDs are best for me. The ready availability of rental media ensured that in nearly 2 decades I purchased only integer numbers of pre-recorded tapes and DVDs. Netflix selection by web and delivery by mail or download only made my non-purchase habits more complete. Internet 'on demand' streaming will probably rule at the end of the day. And the ice caps will get smaller and smaller.... |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote in message ... I think that more labels would like to be able to issue material on both CD and vinyl but even if the retail price of the LP is double that of the CD, the production, pressing and printing costs are ten times. Convincing the bean counters is no easy task:-) I'm sure you're right. Whenever the subject of vinyl comes up on the telly there is usually someone saying that people like 'something they can hold in their hand' and that downloads/MP3s significantly fail to satisfy in that area. Morning Keith The labels with new vinyl issues have grasped this, and use it to great advantage. Most parallel issues have vinyl in gatefold sleeves, with additional photos and bio information, which together with a pair of good-sounding 180gm presings makes a very tactile and pleasing package. Vinyl is small but it is a steady niche product these days. It's never going to completely die out - I wonder if the same will be able to be said about Classical and jazz download figs are way below those for popular music, so there is good reason to hope that these will continue to be distributed on CD. As I mentioned above, it is difficult to convince the bean counters to fnance the issue of the same material on another medium (vinyl) that costs ten times as much for every process post master. In addition there is the additional cost of logistics, and storage, all things which the book keepers watch with a beady eye. Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message I wonder how may record salesmen/women at your famous Walmart could direct a customer to what he/she considers the best three versions of the Quartets of Alexander Kopylov? Why would anyone need to ask a salesperson such a thing given the availability of the Internet? Google answers the question from my breakfast table in less than a second. Really? Then please interrupt your breakfast for "less than a second". I don't need catalogue numbers, just info on labels and artists of three versions, and a knowledgeable evaluation as to which is best, and why. Don't inclue the Elman, everyone knows that one. I don't expect you to do this for nothing. It will be a pleasure to reimburse you for your expertise. Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
In article , Iain Churches
wrote: I don't need catalogue numbers, just info on labels and artists of three versions, and a knowledgeable evaluation as to which is best, and why. I must admit that I am ever more wary of "knowledgeable evaulations" by someone else of a *performance* of a work than by ones of more engeneering-based decisions. But I'd agree this may be a reason to tend to find someone whose opinions past experience has shown are a good indication in terms of your own personal taste. I did used to find out local music shop very helpful and I wanted to go on supporting them. But even there I was wary of any recommendations as to which version was 'best'. Over the past decade or two I've occasionally talked to someone who was curious about listening to 'classical' music but felt they had no clear idea what they might like or dislike. My advice has tended to be A) Listen to Radio 3 some of the time. Make this a casual habit without expecting to fall in love with everything you hear. B) Buy BBC Music Magazine and listen to the cover CD. This lets you listen to a given performance more than once to become familiar with it if you choose. Although these days the iPlayer also lets you re-listen and use the last seven days as a 'big CD to explore'. :-) Then decide using your own ear what you like and what you don't. My view is that it is the cheapest and most effective way if you have no prior knowledge of what you prefer. And the actual performances and production values are usually very good. You can also get some remarkable CDs from (B) where excellent artists make recordings they have not released on commercial CD. Alas, although R3 do broadcast some Jazz, the situation is more limited in that area. Some years ago there was a Jazz magazine with excellent cover discs. But the magazine went bust after a couple of years. Slainte, Jim -- Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message I wonder how may record salesmen/women at your famous Walmart could direct a customer to what he/she considers the best three versions of the Quartets of Alexander Kopylov? Why would anyone need to ask a salesperson such a thing given the availability of the Internet? Google answers the question from my breakfast table in less than a second. Really? Then please interrupt your breakfast for "less than a second". I don't need catalogue numbers, just info on labels and artists of three versions, and a knowledgeable evaluation as to which is best, and why. Don't inclue the Elman, everyone knows that one. I don't expect you to do this for nothing. It will be a pleasure to reimburse you for your expertise. In the interest of teaching you how to fish rather than giving you a few fish Iain, here's some basic information that you obviously need: www.google.com http://www.googleguide.com/ |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
... "Iain Churches" wrote in message "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message I wonder how may record salesmen/women at your famous Walmart could direct a customer to what he/she considers the best three versions of the Quartets of Alexander Kopylov? Why would anyone need to ask a salesperson such a thing given the availability of the Internet? Google answers the question from my breakfast table in less than a second. Really? Then please interrupt your breakfast for "less than a second". I don't need catalogue numbers, just info on labels and artists of three versions, and a knowledgeable evaluation as to which is best, and why. Don't inclue the Elman, everyone knows that one. I don't expect you to do this for nothing. It will be a pleasure to reimburse you for your expertise. In the interest of teaching you how to fish rather than giving you a few fish Iain, here's some basic information that you obviously need: I thought I'd give it a try. It was certainly possible, within a few minutes (hardly "less than a second"!) to find links to recordings of these works. But as for "a knowledgeable evaluation", nope. I guess if I'd spent longer I might have done, but I didn't care enough to put in the time. On the other hand how many record shops from "the good old days" would have had someone able to give "a knowledgeable evaluation" either? - precious few I'd guess. David. |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Iain Churches" wrote in message "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message I wonder how may record salesmen/women at your famous Walmart could direct a customer to what he/she considers the best three versions of the Quartets of Alexander Kopylov? Figuring out the best 3 versions is pretty easy because a little research shows that there aren't more then 3 commercial recordings of any of them. http://imslp.org/wiki/String_Quartet...lov,_Alexander) http://imslp.org/wiki/String_Quartet...lov,_Alexander) http://imslp.org/wiki/String_Quartet...lov,_Alexander) http://imslp.org/wiki/String_Quartet...lov,_Alexander) Actually, there appears to be only one that covers all 4 works: Khachaturian, K: Cipollino (2CD)(Ballet in Three Acts) [CD, Import] Bolshoi Theatre Symphony Orchestra (Conductor), Alexander Kopylov (Orchestra) | Format: Audio CD on the Melodiya label (fugures!) Potentially available he http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...Marina sbooks On the other hand how many record shops from "the good old days" would have had someone able to give "a knowledgeable evaluation" either? - precious few I'd guess. I can see the blank stare right now: "Kopy-who?" |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Iain Churches" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote in message ... I think that more labels would like to be able to issue material on both CD and vinyl but even if the retail price of the LP is double that of the CD, the production, pressing and printing costs are ten times. Convincing the bean counters is no easy task:-) I'm sure you're right. Whenever the subject of vinyl comes up on the telly there is usually someone saying that people like 'something they can hold in their hand' and that downloads/MP3s significantly fail to satisfy in that area. Morning Keith G'devening Iain! The labels with new vinyl issues have grasped this, and use it to great advantage. Most parallel issues have vinyl in gatefold sleeves, with additional photos and bio information, which together with a pair of good-sounding 180gm presings makes a very tactile and pleasing package. Except when the buggers include CD sized booklets in an LP package! Vinyl is small but it is a steady niche product these days. It's never going to completely die out - I wonder if the same will be able to be said about Classical and jazz download figs are way below those for popular music, so there is good reason to hope that these will continue to be distributed on CD. My guess is like vinyl CDs will never completely disappear - too many people using CDR/CDRWs on computers, for a start. As I mentioned above, it is difficult to convince the bean counters to fnance the issue of the same material on another medium (vinyl) that costs ten times as much for every process post master. In addition there is the additional cost of logistics, and storage, all things which the book keepers watch with a beady eye. 'Bookkeeper(s) is one word - the only one in the Eng. Lang. which features three consecutive sets of double letters! (Notta lotta peeple know dat! ;-) |
Technics direct drive turntables
"David Looser" wrote in message ... "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message I wonder how may record salesmen/women at your famous Walmart could direct a customer to what he/she considers the best three versions of the Quartets of Alexander Kopylov? Why would anyone need to ask a salesperson such a thing given the availability of the Internet? Google answers the question from my breakfast table in less than a second. Really? Then please interrupt your breakfast for "less than a second". I don't need catalogue numbers, just info on labels and artists of three versions, and a knowledgeable evaluation as to which is best, and why. Don't inclue the Elman, everyone knows that one. I don't expect you to do this for nothing. It will be a pleasure to reimburse you for your expertise. In the interest of teaching you how to fish rather than giving you a few fish Iain, here's some basic information that you obviously need: I thought I'd give it a try. It was certainly possible, within a few minutes (hardly "less than a second"!) to find links to recordings of these works. But as for "a knowledgeable evaluation", nope. I guess if I'd spent longer I might have done, but I didn't care enough to put in the time. Indeed there are links, but, it seems, not to complete recordings, nor to reviews either. On the other hand how many record shops from "the good old days" would have had someone able to give "a knowledgeable evaluation" either? - precious few I'd guess. I am lucky to have a a shop fairly local where the owner is behind the counter. He has a vast knowledge, and can find what you are enquiring after very quickly indeed. A large part of the classical repertoire is known to him personally, so he can make reliable recomendations. His lady assistant also makes very good Belgian coffee. My recollections of shops in the UK, such as HMV in Oxford St, and those in Tottenham Ct Road, and in Soho, are, with the exception of the Belgian coffee, similar. There is surely no substitute for knowledgeable personal service. With regard to the Quartets of Alexander Kopylov I am reliably informed (by a Russian cellist who whose knowledge of the classical repertoire means that he does not need to rely in Google) that there are in fact three or possibly more recordings of the complete quartets. There are also published reviews, but it probably requires a search in Russian, Czech or Hungarian to find them. The recordings that are of especial interest dates from 1949 and include Op.32, 33 from a broadcast recording. These have never been released on CD. Watch this space:-))) On the other hand how many record shops from "the good old days" would have had someone able to give "a knowledgeable evaluation" either? - precious few I'd guess. I can see the blank stare right now: "Kopy-who?" In Detroit Walmart, almost certainly:-) Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Keith G" wrote in message ... 'Bookkeeper(s) is one word - the only one in the Eng. Lang. which features three consecutive sets of double letters! Good Scrabble score then? (Notta lotta peeple know dat! ;-) If in doubt, I tend to hyphenate! While we doing our Sir Michael Caine impressions, Finnish is said to have the longest palindrome of a single word in any modern language: saippuakauppias (soap vendor) Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... What one sees above Iain is more proof of your ignorance about the normal scale of doing things in the US. Why should that be of the slightest interest to me? This is a) a UK group, and b) I live in Scandinavia, where N.America and N.American values are held in low esteem. Iain, your willful ignorance of actual conditions in the US *proves* that your low opinion of the US is based on your arrogance, prejudice and ignorance, which seem to abound. Arny. You would need to live outside the US in say Scandinavia for a number of years to see America as others see it. It is probably a difference in priorities. Here they put high value on education, social infrastructure, integration, work ethic, health and culture. So it isperplexing to see the American fixation in preserving the military capability, at any cost, to (as you yourself Arny put it on RAO) "bomb the rag-heads back into the Stone Age any time we choose" That seemed a strange thing for you, as a a love-thy-neighbour Christian, to say. America doesn't seem very interested in general health care, and education. People here, most of whom speak two or three languages with very good English, find it hard to belive that Detroit, the city where you live Arny, has an illiteracy level of 47% Nearly half the population of your city cannot read and write in their ow language!! Don't you think that's a disgraceful state of affairs in a country like the USA? http://www.detroitliteracy.org/faq.htm The leve of illiteracy in Scandinavia (and keep in mind that the languages.particularly Danish and Finnish are far more difficult than English) is 0.5% http://www.indexmundi.com/norway/literacy.html http://www.indexmundi.com/sweden/literacy.html http://www.indexmundi.com/denmark/literacy.html http://www.indexmundi.com/finland/literacy.html We observe your political circus, and your constant need to interfere in the internal politics of other nations. Maybe the Chinese snub "to mind your own damn business" will have a positive effect. Iain PS I must admit that we envy you Berklee:-) |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message Despite being a niche market, the public have accepted the considerable rise in the cost of an LP as the improvement in quality both in the pressing and presentation is there for all too see/hear. Except there was never any such improvement. Elegant folios and high quality pressings are not innovations of the declining days of the LP. They were available in the days when LPs were all we had. Presumably by "folios" you mean gatefold sleeves. These, together with 180gr pressings were not very common back then. But the most significant change is the pressing of fewer copies from one stamper, at a far slower pressing cycle, the discontinance of the use of recycled material and vastly improved QC. In addition LPs are supplied in dustproof anti-staic liners. Attention to these five points have had a remarkable effect on quality. People who listen to vinyl these days do so on equipment far better than was generally in use in the 70s and are willing to accept a price level that enable manufacturers to produce a high quality product for which there is an adequate demand. It was widely thought that an increase in price might kill off existing sales. This has proved not to be the case. When LP sales dropped by 99% or *more* as they have for the LP, most sane people would say that the sales were "killed off". They were not killed off to the point of complete and total extinction, but they were effectively killed off. Make up your mind:-) Either they are killed off or they are not! With at least one plant in each of the major EU countries, and the Hayes UK factory turning out a healthy 1 000 000 pressings a year, the last time I read their annual report, this niche market seems to be managing quite well. Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "David Looser" wrote in message "Iain Churches" wrote Would it not be more valuable to you to get up out of that comfy armchair and do your own tests, and reach your own conclusions? It would seem that these would be good things for Iain to do, were he technically able to do such things. Iain claims to have a superior or at least representitive collection of fine LP playback equipment at his disposal. He also claims to be able to engage the services of comptent technical staff. The fact that Iain is not rising to the occasion casts doubts on his numerous claims relating to equipment and staff. I am amused Arny, by the way you are taken in by all that fairy-tale religious mumbo-jumbo with which the Baptists force-feed you and yet you doubt things which you could easily verify for yourself. Come and pay us a visit! I have about a dozen people in my immediate professional circle who have heard your dreadful recording of Domine. I know they would be fascinated to meet the perpetrator of this transgression. One of my colleagues, whom you insulted most rudely on RAO would be particularly interested to make your personal acquaintance. You can even apologise personally to the young lady cello student, now a professional orchestral player, who burst into tears when she heard your "choir" recording. She thought it was some cruel sacreligous hoax for the "666" label Looking forward to welcoming you. Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Iain Churches" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote in message ... 'Bookkeeper(s) is one word - the only one in the Eng. Lang. which features three consecutive sets of double letters! Good Scrabble score then? (Notta lotta peeple know dat! ;-) If in doubt, I tend to hyphenate! I tend to hyperventilate - almost the same! :-) While we doing our Sir Michael Caine impressions, Finnish is said to have the longest palindrome of a single word in any modern language: saippuakauppias (soap vendor) Yep, that's a good 'un! |
Technics direct drive turntables
"MiNe 109" wrote in message ... The labels also didn't like independent pressing plant operators for a variety of reasons: dodgy business practices ("breakage" quotas), etc. I can't recall ever hearing the term "breakage quota" (ever tried to break an LP ? :-) In the UK, "rejects" (usually due to misaligned stampers) were at a low set percentage. Any press man worth his salt could set the stamper with accuracy, and stopped the press at regular intervals to check the geometry. There was talk of independent factories "selling from the back door" but this was quickly corrected by the insistance that "run ups" (that should have been recycled) were pressed with blank white labels, and by keeping tight control on the number of labels and sleeves supplied to the plant. In the UK, independent plants turned out a high quality product. Cheers Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote: "MiNe 109" wrote in message ... The labels also didn't like independent pressing plant operators for a variety of reasons: dodgy business practices ("breakage" quotas), etc. I can't recall ever hearing the term "breakage quota" (ever tried to break an LP ? :-) In the UK, "rejects" (usually due to misaligned stampers) were at a low set percentage. Any press man worth his salt could set the stamper with accuracy, and stopped the press at regular intervals to check the geometry. There was talk of independent factories "selling from the back door" but this was quickly corrected by the insistance that "run ups" (that should have been recycled) were pressed with blank white labels, and by keeping tight control on the number of labels and sleeves supplied to the plant. In the UK, independent plants turned out a high quality product. The "breakage" was contractual! Artists were paid for 90% of units pressed assuming 10% loss. Whether those "broken" lps went out the back door benefitting the pressing plant or the front door benefitting the record label I'm not sure. Stephen |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
Arny. You would need to live outside the US in say Scandinavia for a number of years to see America as others see it. Why would I want to see what people who have never lived here think they see because that's what they feel they need to see? It is probably a difference in priorities. Here they put high value on education, social infrastructure, integration, work ethic, health and culture. If you would put on your thinking cap Iain, you'd realize that there are probably at least two people in the US who feel that way for every person in Scandinavia who feel that way. There are only about 25 million Scandinavians, and about 300 million Americans. If only 30% of the population of the US put a high value on education, social infrastructure, integration, work ethic, health and culture then there would be almost 4 Americans who agree with those ideals for every living Scandinavian. Your problem Iain is that you seem to think that a country as large and diverse as The United States of America is just as homogeneous as these tiny little hidebound (still have monarchies!) Scandinavian countries, In fact almost all the smart Scandinavians emigrated to the US long ago, where they and their descendents number about 12 million. So it is preplexing to see the American fixation in preserving the military capability, at any cost If you were well-informed Iain, you'd realize that we aren't preserving our military but cutting it back, and we surely aren't preserving it at any cost since military expenditures are only about 5% of our GDP and about 20% of our federal budget. Of course our military expenditures appear large to people who live in countries that are smaller than most of our states. to (as you yourself Arny put it on RAO) "bomb the rag-heads back into the Stone Age any time we choose" That seemed a strange thing for you, as a a love-thy-neighbor Christian, to say. I just searched Google to see if I could correct your misattribution, Iain. I can't find that text posted by *anybody* on RAO. Long story short, please provide a link to that post, or provide the time and date, or cease and desist gratuitously libeling me. America doesn't seem very interested in general health care, and education. From more than a thousand miles away, perhaps. Your problem Iain is that your provincial mind thinks of America of being just one people, just one place, just one set of aspirations. About half of the people in my particular community have attended college. People here, most of whom speak two or three languages with very good English, find it hard to believe that Detroit, the city where you live Arny, has an illiteracy level of 47% Nearly half the population of your city cannot read and write in their own language!! Detroit is not my city. It's a city that shares a border with my city, which is Grosse Pointe Woods. About half of the people in my city have attended college, so their literacy is not in doubt. Illiteracy is unfortunately characteristic of that particular group of people. It takes a very small mind to try to characterize a country of 300 million people as being the same as an unfortunate, less than one million of them who live in a particular place, not that far from where I live. Your contant re-iteration of this unfortunately fact makes you look very mean-spirited Iain, which of course is your true nature. |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message Arny. You would need to live outside the US in say Scandinavia for a number of years to see America as others see it. Why would I want to see what people who have never lived here think they see because that's what they feel they need to see? It is probably a difference in priorities. Here they put high value on education, social infrastructure, integration, work ethic, health and culture. If you would put on your thinking cap Iain, you'd realize that there are probably at least two people in the US who feel that way for every person in Scandinavia who feel that way. There are only about 25 million Scandinavians, and about 300 million Americans. If only 30% of the population of the US put a high value on education, social infrastructure, integration, work ethic, health and culture then there would be almost 4 Americans who agree with those ideals for every living Scandinavian. Your problem Iain is that you seem to think that a country as large and diverse as The United States of America is just as homogeneous as these tiny little hidebound (still have monarchies!) Scandinavian countries, In fact almost all the smart Scandinavians emigrated to the US long ago, where they and their descendents number about 12 million. So it is preplexing to see the American fixation in preserving the military capability, at any cost If you were well-informed Iain, you'd realize that we aren't preserving our military but cutting it back, and we surely aren't preserving it at any cost since military expenditures are only about 5% of our GDP and about 20% of our federal budget. Of course our military expenditures appear large to people who live in countries that are smaller than most of our states. to (as you yourself Arny put it on RAO) "bomb the rag-heads back into the Stone Age any time we choose" That seemed a strange thing for you, as a a love-thy-neighbor Christian, to say. I just searched Google to see if I could correct your misattribution, Iain. I can't find that text posted by *anybody* on RAO. Long story short, please provide a link to that post, or provide the time and date, or cease and desist gratuitously libeling me. America doesn't seem very interested in general health care, and education. From more than a thousand miles away, perhaps. Your problem Iain is that your provincial mind thinks of America of being just one people, just one place, just one set of aspirations. About half of the people in my particular community have attended college. People here, most of whom speak two or three languages with very good English, find it hard to believe that Detroit, the city where you live Arny, has an illiteracy level of 47% Nearly half the population of your city cannot read and write in their own language!! Detroit is not my city. It's a city that shares a border with my city, which is Grosse Pointe Woods. About half of the people in my city have attended college, so their literacy is not in doubt. Illiteracy is unfortunately characteristic of that particular group of people. It takes a very small mind to try to characterize a country of 300 million people as being the same as an unfortunate, less than one million of them who live in a particular place, not that far from where I live. Your contant re-iteration of this unfortunately fact makes you look very mean-spirited Iain, which of course is your true nature. About half of the people in my city have attended college, so their literacy is not in doubt. Why should you think that worthy of a mention? Illiteracy is unfortunately characteristic of that particular group of people. It takes a very small mind to try to characterize a country of 300 million people as being the same as an unfortunate, less than one million of them who live in a particular place, not that far from where I live. Your contant re-iteration of this unfortunately fact makes you look very mean-spirited Iain, which of course is your true nature. Let's contine this discussion when you come to visit here. Many people are looking forward to meeting "the man behind the mouth" Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... Illiteracy is unfortunately characteristic of that particular group of people. It takes a very small mind to try to characterize a country of 300 million people as being the same as an unfortunate, less than one million of them who live in a particular place, not that far from where I live. Your contant re-iteration of this unfortunately fact makes you look very mean-spirited Iain, which of course is your true nature. Let's contine this discussion when you come to visit here. Send me a round trip airplane ticket with prepaid accomodations at some convenient location. That's the offer that John Atkinson used to obtain my presence in NYC, and I'll treat you no worse. Many people are looking forward to meeting "the man behind the mouth" I have no special interest in meeting you in person Iain. We've got plenty of people with high opinions of themselves and low IQs right here in the good old USA. |
Technics direct drive turntables
On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 12:18:19 -0000, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Bob Latham" wrote in message In article , David Looser wrote: Granted the devotees of the Linn go far more OTT than you (the Linn isn't just a turntable, it's a magical machine that turns any third-rate audio system into a music machine to satsfy the gods, or so they tell me). So sorry, simply better. :-) Unfortunately, unquantifiably so in any technical sense. The TD125 was a far better product. I too believe this to be true. I acquired mine from a local Hi-Fi shop in the late 70s as a motorboard kit (sans tone arm and plinth), electing to make my own "Chinese Copy" of the original plinth as pictured in the HiFi Year book of '75 using 1 cm thick perspex and fitting an SME2009 MK2 tone arm fitted with an ADC XLM cartridge. I still use it (off and on) today to digitise my modest collection of vinyl. When I built the deck, I included a phono pre-amp to provide line out levels and allow a headphone driver amp to be included. This makes it a standalone music source in the same way that a tape deck provides an already equalised line out source, neatly addressing the issues of noise and hum loops (it just seemed stupid to connect the very weak cartridge signals over an external cable run into the phono input on a seperate amplifier box, after all, the same isn't done with the signals from a tape replay head). I've seen the (presumably later) TD160 model and its cost cutting plastic platter hub which didn't impress me as being an improvement over the all metal design of the TD125. The only downside to belt drive is the durability of the belts themselves but the one used in the thorens design seems to be made from very durable materials and is still going strong after more than 30 years. I'm not sure but I think I bought a replacement belt about ten years back as a precaution. I might even have swapped the original out (but only to give it a respite, not because it had failed or was causing trouble). If I was to do one more "mod", it would be to provide a crystal controlled 50Hz reference for the neon strobe. The mains source shows too much short term drift for my liking. -- Regards JB Good |
Technics direct drive turntables
In article op.vqpwj2uikd9x7s@fred, Johny B Good
wrote: I've seen the (presumably later) TD160 model and its cost cutting plastic platter hub which didn't impress me as being an improvement over the all metal design of the TD125. Perhaps the 'plastic' has/had higher internal vibration loss, so might reduce unwanted vibrations compared with the metal? No idea, never used or examined either. If I was to do one more "mod", it would be to provide a crystal controlled 50Hz reference for the neon strobe. The mains source shows too much short term drift for my liking. How do you know its is the "mains" that is drifting and not what you are comparing with? Slainte, Jim -- Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Technics direct drive turntables
On Fri, 11 Feb 2011 09:09:03 -0000, Jim Lesurf
wrote: In article op.vqpwj2uikd9x7s@fred, Johny B Good wrote: I've seen the (presumably later) TD160 model and its cost cutting plastic platter hub which didn't impress me as being an improvement over the all metal design of the TD125. Perhaps the 'plastic' has/had higher internal vibration loss, so might reduce unwanted vibrations compared with the metal? No idea, never used or examined either. If I was to do one more "mod", it would be to provide a crystal controlled 50Hz reference for the neon strobe. The mains source shows too much short term drift for my liking. How do you know its is the "mains" that is drifting and not what you are comparing with? Slainte, Jim That's a good question Jim. I suppose I must have arrived at that assumption simply because it mimicked the same flavour of drift as displayed by the hum bar on a colour TV at "The End of The Broadcasting Day"[1] before the transmitter was shutdown. Of course, I'd have to actually do the mod before I could say with absolute certainty that the variations were (almost) entirely due to the mains alone. [1] Ah, those were the days. -- Regards JB Good |
Technics direct drive turntables
In article op.vqqx05iukd9x7s@fred, Johny B Good
wrote: On Fri, 11 Feb 2011 09:09:03 -0000, Jim Lesurf wrote: If I was to do one more "mod", it would be to provide a crystal controlled 50Hz reference for the neon strobe. The mains source shows too much short term drift for my liking. How do you know its is the "mains" that is drifting and not what you are comparing with? That's a good question Jim. I suppose I must have arrived at that assumption simply because it mimicked the same flavour of drift as displayed by the hum bar on a colour TV at "The End of The Broadcasting Day"[1] before the transmitter was shutdown. The question occurred to me because your comment made me recall a conversation with someone else years ago. He was using a 'direct drive' TT whose strobe (so he told me) worked from the same clock as the actual TT, yet showed variations in TT speed. Now, ignoring the distinction between phase and frequency lock that struck me as a weird idea because if the clock ran fast or slow you'd never know from the strobe display as the TT would simply 'track the strobe'. :-) Of course, I'd have to actually do the mod before I could say with absolute certainty that the variations were (almost) entirely due to the mains alone. IIRC There is a webpage that shows the recent variations in UK mains frequency. It is regularly updated and provided by the people who operate the grid IIRC. You could use that to see if what you get with your TT follows what it shows. Alas, I can't recall the URL, so you'd need to search for it, or have someone else post the address. Slainte, Jim -- Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Technics direct drive turntables
On Fri, 11 Feb 2011 16:51:18 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote: In article op.vqqx05iukd9x7s@fred, Johny B Good wrote: On Fri, 11 Feb 2011 09:09:03 -0000, Jim Lesurf wrote: If I was to do one more "mod", it would be to provide a crystal controlled 50Hz reference for the neon strobe. The mains source shows too much short term drift for my liking. How do you know its is the "mains" that is drifting and not what you are comparing with? That's a good question Jim. I suppose I must have arrived at that assumption simply because it mimicked the same flavour of drift as displayed by the hum bar on a colour TV at "The End of The Broadcasting Day"[1] before the transmitter was shutdown. The question occurred to me because your comment made me recall a conversation with someone else years ago. He was using a 'direct drive' TT whose strobe (so he told me) worked from the same clock as the actual TT, yet showed variations in TT speed. Now, ignoring the distinction between phase and frequency lock that struck me as a weird idea because if the clock ran fast or slow you'd never know from the strobe display as the TT would simply 'track the strobe'. :-) Of course, I'd have to actually do the mod before I could say with absolute certainty that the variations were (almost) entirely due to the mains alone. IIRC There is a webpage that shows the recent variations in UK mains frequency. It is regularly updated and provided by the people who operate the grid IIRC. You could use that to see if what you get with your TT follows what it shows. Alas, I can't recall the URL, so you'd need to search for it, or have someone else post the address. Slainte, Jim I have seen a site that provides a graph, but this one is quite nice for an instantaneous reading. http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm# d |
Technics direct drive turntables
"MiNe 109" wrote in message ... In article , "Iain Churches" wrote: "MiNe 109" wrote in message ... The labels also didn't like independent pressing plant operators for a variety of reasons: dodgy business practices ("breakage" quotas), etc. I can't recall ever hearing the term "breakage quota" (ever tried to break an LP ? :-) In the UK, "rejects" (usually due to misaligned stampers) were at a low set percentage. Any press man worth his salt could set the stamper with accuracy, and stopped the press at regular intervals to check the geometry. There was talk of independent factories "selling from the back door" but this was quickly corrected by the insistance that "run ups" (that should have been recycled) were pressed with blank white labels, and by keeping tight control on the number of labels and sleeves supplied to the plant. In the UK, independent plants turned out a high quality product. The "breakage" was contractual! Artists were paid for 90% of units pressed assuming 10% loss. Ahaa! I see. It was the artist being penalised on sales, not an independent plant charging the record company for breakage? That's a litte suspect I would have thought, but if it was part of the contract which the artist signed then there was nothing to say afterwards. The "assumed loss" figure is also very high, it seems to me, expecially as it was common to punch out the label, shred rejects, and run-ups and put them back into the vinyl hopper. A mis-aligned stamper was not something one could charge the client for or make deduction. Whether those "broken" lps went out the back door benefitting the pressing plant or the front door benefitting the record label I'm not sure. Probably not unheard of:-) Iain Stephen |
Technics direct drive turntables
"David Looser" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote I find it surprising that you should make such a sweeping statement without even knowing of the existence of Verdier, and without knowing that SME make what are widely considered to be the finest turnable and pick up arms in the world. You must have missed the bit where I said I was familier with SME arms :-( If you want to make a comparison, you simply pick those that were considered the best at that time.The audition that I attended, organised by the local section of the AES, picked Garrard 401, EMT and a Telefunken 600, a Transcriptors.and couple of others the names of which I no longer recall, plus an SME and a Verdier. We had a panel of a dozen or so people. Verdier was the tuntable of choice. Was that "audition" conducted according to the requirementrs of a listening test?, or did you all sit around listening together and in full knowledge of what you were listening to? Because if the later the "audition" has no value. :-)) It was conducted at a broadcast facility. The panel participants were all professionals and AES members The turntables (which had been set up by broadcast technical service) were in the control room, and the listeners were in the studio area, with a drawn curtain over the window between studio and control room. There were nine turntables in all, so it was decided to divide them into three groups of three, with the winner of each group taking a place in the fourth session. Levels were matched using the Decca test LP ZAL 16234 -3F which I provided. We were able to obtain three pressings of each piece of music (classical, MOR, jazz) all with the same dash number. None of us knew which TT we were listening to. The control-room op switched sources Would it not be more valuable to you to get up out of that comfy armchair and do your own tests, and reach your own conclusions? What would my own tests prove? You wouold at least have made an (albeit short) acquaintance with some top of the range turntables, and have something to to tell your children/grandchildren :-) no more than your personal anecdotes do. Perhaps you don't get invited to listening tests, so given the medium in which we discuss here, personal anecdotes are the best one can do. I listen to vinyl so rarely that the relative merits of expensive TTs is of little interest to me. Yes. I understand that. It is the fact that people listen to and enjoy music that is important, not the machine which reproduces it. Unlike Keith, apparently, (and in company with a very large proportion of the population) I find vinyl irritating rather than "gripping" and only use when there is no alternative. Is the irritation due to the fact that your records are in poor condition, and your TT not in good shape?. I played two sides of Decca GOS 628-30 Bach: St John Passion. Choir of King's College Cambridge/Lndon Philharmonia, late late last night on my EMT 948 before turning in. It's a remarkable performance I have played this boxed set many many times in the thirty years I have owned it -Light surface here and there, but no ticks, plops or scratches, and certainly none of the "rifle shots" that Jim complains of. It was indeed a pleasing experience. I guess you don't watch British TV. A busy schedule means that I don't have the time to watch much TV at all. I try to watch BBC World News and something on the BBC HD channel as and when I can. The Nordic satelite has 300 stations, some of them from the UK. There was a recent series called "Turn Back Time" in which the TV production company took over some empty shops in the centre of Shepton Mallet, set them up as shops from a particular era in the past and brought in volunteer retailers to run them as shops of that era. The first era was the 1870s, the last the 1970s (via Edwardian, 1930s, wartime and 1960s). Yes I know of that series, - not the installment with the shops, but modern familes going back to a 1950s home and lifestyle. Most interesting. In the 1970 era one shop was set up as a 1970s record shop and the volunteer "owner" was required to sell recorded music 1970s style, ie on vinyl. He didn't do well, the population of Shepton Mallet didn't make a bee-line to his door demanding to buy LPs, quite the contrary. On the other hand the woman who ran a 1970s style clothes shop did very well. The number of turntables in Shepton Mallet can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand. One needs customers from a much greater catchment area. The wife of a colleague of mine in the UK works as a volunteer in a charity shop. They have boxes of vinyl, good bad and ugly, all at UKP1. People, especially youngsters, come from miles around to browse. Did they have a 1970's style pub? 1950's would be better. A public bar, a lounge bar and a snug. No TV or karaoke, but a billiard table, a good dartboard, snacks on the counter, and in addition to best keg bitter, also mild and brown ale not from bottles but on tap:-) Regards Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
... "David Looser" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote Was that "audition" conducted according to the requirementrs of a listening test?, or did you all sit around listening together and in full knowledge of what you were listening to? Because if the later the "audition" has no value. :-)) It was conducted at a broadcast facility. The panel participants were all professionals and AES members I The turntables (which had been set up by broadcast technical service) were in the control room, and the listeners were in the studio area, with a drawn curtain over the window between studio and control room. There were nine turntables in all, so it was decided to divide them into three groups of three, with the winner of each group taking a place in the fourth session. Levels were matched using the Decca test LP ZAL 16234 -3F which I provided. We were able to obtain three pressings of each piece of music (classical, MOR, jazz) all with the same dash number. None of us knew which TT we were listening to. The control-room op switched sources So you went some way towards making it a properly controlled test, but not far enough. It seems that the panel knew that they were listening to turntables and that everyone listened together, both very definite no-nos in subjective testing. Was the order in which the turntables were heard varied for each cycle? was the same turntable used twice as if it was a switch? What were the voting arrangments? and how statistically significant were the results? You wouold at least have made an (albeit short) acquaintance with some top of the range turntables, and have something to to tell your children/grandchildren :-) LOL! I've plenty of things to tell my children (and grandchildren if I ever get any, my children don't seem in any hurry to provide them :-( ) far more interesting than a nodding acquaintance with top of the range turntables. Frankly my children couldn't care less about such things. As long as the right sound comes out when they press the button that's all they care about the technical aspects of sound eproduction. no more than your personal anecdotes do. Perhaps you don't get invited to listening tests, so given the medium in which we discuss here, personal anecdotes are the best one can do. For 5 years my job consisted solely of providing technical support for subjective tests. Granted these tests were for voice communications equipment, not HiFi equipment, but the principles, particularly with regard to eliminating bias, are exactly the same. Personal anecdotes are worth precisely nothing. I listen to vinyl so rarely that the relative merits of expensive TTs is of little interest to me. Yes. I understand that. It is the fact that people listen to and enjoy music that is important, not the machine which reproduces it. So why are you spending so much time trying to persuade me of the merits of overpriced turntables? Unlike Keith, apparently, (and in company with a very large proportion of the population) I find vinyl irritating rather than "gripping" and only use when there is no alternative. Is the irritation due to the fact that your records are in poor condition, and your TT not in good shape?. The irritation starts with the awkward size of the records and the short playing time per side. It goes on with the careful handling needed to ensure they don't get damaged, the need to check periodically for stylus wear etc. Then there is the fact that even the most expensive and carefully set-up turntable cannot totally eliminate the distortions inherent in the vinyl medium. Distortions that a small, easily handled, CD does not have even when played on a low-cost player. I played two sides of Decca GOS 628-30 Bach: St John Passion. Choir of King's College Cambridge/Lndon Philharmonia, late late last night on my EMT 948 before turning in. It's a remarkable performance I have played this boxed set many many times in the thirty years I have owned it -Light surface here and there, but no ticks, plops or scratches, and certainly none of the "rifle shots" that Jim complains of. *Any* LP will have "light surface" from beginning to end, and I don't think I've ever met an LP that didn't have ticks at least even when brand new. It was indeed a pleasing experience. Fair enough. I can also enjoy listening to LPs that I've owned for years, the pleasure I get from music outweighs the technical shortcomings of the medium. I do, however, regard it as perverse that some people are still recording LPs which others will buy at inflated prices when better technologies have been around for over a quarter of a century. David. |
Technics direct drive turntables
In article , David Looser
wrote: "Iain Churches" wrote in message ... It was conducted at a broadcast facility. The panel participants were all professionals and AES members I The turntables (which had been set up by broadcast technical service) were in the control room, and the listeners were in the studio area, with a drawn curtain over the window between studio and control room. There were nine turntables in all, so it was decided to divide them into three groups of three, with the winner of each group taking a place in the fourth session. Levels were matched using the Decca test LP ZAL 16234 -3F which I provided. We were able to obtain three pressings of each piece of music (classical, MOR, jazz) all with the same dash number. None of us knew which TT we were listening to. The control-room op switched sources So you went some way towards making it a properly controlled test, but not far enough. It seems that the panel knew that they were listening to turntables and that everyone listened together, both very definite no-nos in subjective testing. Was the order in which the turntables were heard varied for each cycle? was the same turntable used twice as if it was a switch? What were the voting arrangments? and how statistically significant were the results? Slightly different questions occur to me from reading the above. How was it arranged to use the same cartridge and shift this from one 'TT' to another? Or were ones assumed to be 'similar' used? Ditto for the arms. Indeed, what cartridge and arms were used? I ask because my own experience is that a change of cartridge etc (or a change of setup like tracking geometry) makes a measurable difference. Hence the question is really, how was it established that it was the "turntable" that made any detected difference rather than something else. How often was the test redone with the choice of individual LP swapped around? Ditto for 'similiar' cartridges or arms. Did the 'group' all sit and make their decisions together - or individually with no chance to influence each other? If the test was as a group then statistically there was essentially only 'one participant'. Not a group of individual 'participants'. Has this been published, or is there any other way for someone else to examine the results and the methods? The core problem is the common one for many 'audio tests'. How does anyone establish that the 'reason(s)' put forward for what people perceived are the genuine cause? i.e. How can anyone establish that the 'conclusion' actually stands up? I played two sides of Decca GOS 628-30 Bach: St John Passion. Choir of King's College Cambridge/Lndon Philharmonia, late late last night on my EMT 948 before turning in. It's a remarkable performance I have played this boxed set many many times in the thirty years I have owned it -Light surface here and there, but no ticks, plops or scratches, and certainly none of the "rifle shots" that Jim complains of. *Any* LP will have "light surface" from beginning to end, and I don't think I've ever met an LP that didn't have ticks at least even when brand new. I have encountered some. Oddly enough, more often amongst the LPs that companies sent to Armstrong that they knew we might use in Shows. :-) That said, EMI generally still didn't seem to notice such matters. The reality, though, was that for classical LPs I bought back in the 1970s *most* had obvious manufacturing defects or faults like clicks. And as I've pointed out in the past - there were also many articles and letters on the topic from *retailers* as well as record listeners at the time. In some cases giving detailed statistics. Perhaps that has been one reason why I've tended to regard fussing about choice of TT as being a 'displacement acitivity'. My experience is that choice of cartridge and setup of that matters far more unless the TT really is lousy. However I'd agree from my experience that clicks were less likely to be audible with pop/rock material as the level of the music tended to be high enough to mask them. Maybe they were called 'pop' music because of the way the loudness concealed the 'pops'. ;- Slainte, Jim -- Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
I played two sides of Decca GOS 628-30 Bach: St John Passion. Choir of King's College Cambridge/Lndon Philharmonia, late late last night on my EMT 948 before turning in. It's a remarkable performance I have played this boxed set many many times in the thirty years I have owned it -Light surface here and there, but no ticks, plops or scratches, and certainly none of the "rifle shots" that Jim complains of. Effective proof that Iain's ear's have subnormal HF response, and not by a little. I've never ever heard a LP that lacked audible surface noise unless digitally processed. I've visited the homes of vinylphiles and heard their hand-selected system, and I've auditioned some of the most highly regarded high end audio shows in the world. I am currently under the impression that some vinylphiles have the ability to willfully enter a semi-conscious state where the usual audbile vinyl grunge is not perceived by them. |
Technics direct drive turntables
"David Looser" wrote in
message So you went some way towards making it a properly controlled test, but not far enough. It seems that the panel knew that they were listening to turntables and that everyone listened together, both very definite no-nos in subjective testing. Agreed. Whether the test was truely double blind is open for speculation. Also missing - audibly perfect time synchronization of the playback. Was the order in which the turntables were heard varied for each cycle? was the same turntable used twice as if it was a switch? What were the voting arrangments? and how statistically significant were the results? Here's a link to a TT comparison test that did things *right*: http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_phca.htm The goal was comparing cartridges, but in fact entire vinyl playback systems were compared. |
Technics direct drive turntables
"David Looser" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote The shortage of people/businesses prepared to lend a 30-40K turntable Are you serious? 30-40K for a TURNTABLE? What planet do these people live on? Yes. He's serious. I know a good number of people, less well-heeled who have turntables that retail at a very modest UKP10,000. You might also be interested to enquire about the prices of the speakers which such people use: Tannoy (Westminster Royal?) and B+W (Nautilus 802) Make sure you are sitting down before you make the call:-) Regards Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... In article , David Looser wrote: Indeed, because the mass-market transition from buying music on physical media to downloads is well advanced. CD will, in the near future, itself be a niche market catering mainly, I guess, to classical music buyers. I'm personally hoping it will be an array of *small* companies who are enthusiasts and will happily sell you a disc or a download to use as you choose since their real interest is in ensuring the *music* is available. What do you mean by "use as you choose", Jim. The industry's own expectation is that the major companies will split up label by label, into separate companies each having a high level of expertise in their own field. So this will be a return to the status quo. The downside of this is that few companies will be able to invest longterm in artists forming a lifetime bond. (Sir George Solti's association of more than 50 years with Decca, some 250 recordings including 45 operas, is one example of many that comes to mind) Artists, will be freelance, paid by the project, and need to hop from label to label, projhect to project The other problem is that no company will be able to make large longterm project investment, over say ten years. It is important especially in classical repertoire, that young talent, singers, solo performers, conductors, orchestral musicians, be heard in major projects, opera, etc. Without subsidy from various EU cultural foundations, (and Arts Council in the UK) funding for such projects will not be viable. I suspect there is more chance of this with classical/jazz/etc than 'pop music' which has largely been a way for bigger companies to extract dosh from all and sundry. The financial budget, artistic and technical expertise required to bring a band to the public's notice, and turn it into a commercial sucess, is cvonsiderable, Jim. About one in ten new acts makes any money over a five year period. And very often those that do, have "internal differences" and the band breaks up before the second album, or (even worse) just days after it's release. For pop/rock I suspect individual bands will make their output available as side-dish to their concerts. A great number of bands are already doing this. One even sees record kiosks as classical concerts. With a CD the price of a cocktail, trade (albeit on impulse) is brisk. It is open to debate whether that same member of the audience would take the trouble to go to his local shop to buy the recording the next day. Some classical concert promoters offer leather bound programme folders, with pockets for the tickets, the programme and the CD. For a special occasion, these make a nice keepsake. So I'd love to see companies like Chandos and Linn music survive and prosper. Let's hope so, and a great many others too. I suspect most casual pop/rock listeners would prefer to get 'free' mp3s at low rates. These listeners make up the majority of the market. But maybe enough of those would be interested in a disc *if* they had an interest in better quality - or it became the fashion item to have. :-) Pop music is largely transitory, that quantity not quality is what matters to most people. My neighbour's children have every single track ever recorded by Metalica on iPod. (They probably get this from their father who has every single track ever recorded by Jethro Tull:-) Car players, and iPods seem to be the players of choice. If it comes down to "the fashion item to have" then turntables are a much stronger contender. A whole generation has missed out on vinyl, which, for many, holds a deep fascination. Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... Examing the public record, I find a scholarly paper from Yale university that shows a Bosendorfer 290 concert grand measuring out to to be rather deficient in bass as compared to a Roland keyboard and a Yamaha upright piano. The Michail Lifits concert at the Wigmore Hall will probably be performed on a Bosendorfer, an instrument which is hugely expensive to rent, transport and tune. Why don't you telehone John Gilby and advise him to use a Roland keyboard instead, Arny? I am sure you could get him a good deal from Walmart. Kipper coming up:-) Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message I played two sides of Decca GOS 628-30 Bach: St John Passion. Choir of King's College Cambridge/London Philharmonia, late late last night on my EMT 948 before turning in. It's a remarkable performance I have played this boxed set many many times in the thirty years I have owned it -Light surface here and there, but no ticks, plops or scratches, and certainly none of the "rifle shots" that Jim complains of. Effective proof that Iain's ear's have subnormal HF response, and not by a little. And this from the man who recorded "Domine" LOL :-) Time to post a link again, Arny:-) Will you? Or shall I ? Funny how " true believers" convince themselves they have effective proof in all manner of things, when , in truth, they have none. The audiogram, required by law for employment insurance in professional music recording is far more effective proof and plainly to the contrary, dear Arny. I invited you to come for a visit. I will happy to demonstrate the same LP Decca GOS 628-30 to you on the same EMT948 on which I played it. As an amateur non-conformist church recordist, this recording should be of great interest to you. The choir is perhaps the finest you will ever hear, and the acoustic of the chapel which dates from the 1450s is truly magnificient. I can show you session photos of the chapel and the "Decca tree" mic set up. You may even care to take part in a gentlemen's wager as regards the clicks and pops on the disc surface. Let's see what the "man behind the mouth" as my colleague calls you, is really made of:-)) Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
In article , Iain Churches
wrote: "Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... In article , David Looser wrote: Indeed, because the mass-market transition from buying music on physical media to downloads is well advanced. CD will, in the near future, itself be a niche market catering mainly, I guess, to classical music buyers. I'm personally hoping it will be an array of *small* companies who are enthusiasts and will happily sell you a disc or a download to use as you choose since their real interest is in ensuring the *music* is available. What do you mean by "use as you choose", Jim. I mean that they provide the 'music' in a form like LPCM wave or Flac with no DRM. They provide you with whatever sample rate and bitdepth you choose. And you are then free to use that as you choose. So might both have a 96k/24bit version to play on any computer-based system you own, or generate DVDs to play on your own players, or CDs, or make mp3s or aacs or whatever *you* use for your *own* listening. An end to 'now buy another version'. Maybe even, "choose to buy the CD and it comes with either a DVD with high rez lpcm wave files or a code to download the hi rez version whenever you choose". On of the snags of downloading is the lack of a good booklet and having to put a copy onto CDR/DVDR if you want something off HD to 'own'. Looking at Linnrecords the thought I kept having was "why not given the option to buy a CD plus a DVD with the 88k/24 or 192k/24 wave/flac version, all in a nice CD case with the booklet?" No DRM or 'rights management'. They just get in the way of honest users, and don't actually stop those seriously intent on piracy. The point is to put the paying customer into the driving seat. The industry's own expectation is that the major companies will split up label by label, into separate companies each having a high level of expertise in their own field. So this will be a return to the status quo. The downside of this is that few companies will be able to invest longterm in artists forming a lifetime bond. (Sir George Solti's association of more than 50 years with Decca, some 250 recordings including 45 operas, is one example of many that comes to mind) Artists, will be freelance, paid by the project, and need to hop from label to label, projhect to project The other problem is that no company will be able to make large longterm project investment, over say ten years. It is important especially in classical repertoire, that young talent, singers, solo performers, conductors, orchestral musicians, be heard in major projects, opera, etc. Without subsidy from various EU cultural foundations, (and Arts Council in the UK) funding for such projects will not be viable. I know that for many years some companies did this as a 'prestige' thing. However I've noticed since that small companies like Chandos, and also 'band run' labels dedicated to specific groups of people are working. Chandos are a good example as they have been making really excellent recordings for many years. Naxos also are interesting because they have done well out of choosing 'unknown' artists and kept down their costs. Different approaches, but both have worked OK. So I do hope/expect that a number of small concerns will go on making and releasing recordings. Also note the declared wish of the BBC that their 'archive' should get as close as possible to 'all on line'. Think of what that could mean in the future given all the recordings they hold of proms and other concerts they sponsored. I was listening to their 320k aac stream again yesterday having made some improvements to the system I'm using. Once again I was very impressed by the sound and the performance. BTW In this case a performance of Holmboe's 1st Symphony. My only concern wrt the destruction of giants like EMI is that their back catalogue doen't become unavailable. FWIW I am also concerned about how many recordings are generally unavailable with no clear prospect of being audible by most of us. The obvious examples are the ones held by the UK and USA but can only be heard if you visit the organisation's building - despite being taxpayer funded. Thus we all pay for what only a tiny number get a chance to hear. And almost never in a convenient situation with good equipment. For the USA, think V-Disc as an example. I suspect there is more chance of this with classical/jazz/etc than 'pop music' which has largely been a way for bigger companies to extract dosh from all and sundry. The financial budget, artistic and technical expertise required to bring a band to the public's notice, and turn it into a commercial sucess, is cvonsiderable, Jim. The good news is that small companies seem to do it OK since the CDs are appearing, etc. Plus, of course, the remit of the BBC. Some classical concert promoters offer leather bound programme folders, with pockets for the tickets, the programme and the CD. For a special occasion, these make a nice keepsake. No fancy leather folders. But when the SCO or BBCScotSO visit town they have CDs on sale at discounted prices. People do seem to buy them. So I'd love to see companies like Chandos and Linn music survive and prosper. Let's hope so, and a great many others too. Yes. I suspect most casual pop/rock listeners would prefer to get 'free' mp3s at low rates. These listeners make up the majority of the market. That is my greater concern TBH. Music is not taught in UK schools as it was 'when I were a lad'. There has been a decline in interest in non-pop music due to lack of exposure. And music is easily cut when the government wants to 'save money'. However again there may be some good news here with the development of 'Big Noise' type work prompted by the creation of the projects in South America, etc. Slainte, Jim -- Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
Why don't you telephone John Gilby and advise him to use a Roland keyboard instead, Arny? He might not like the touch of the keyboard. He surely knows what exists and what he wants. I am sure you could get him a good deal from Walmart. Iain's ignorance of the US professional audio market demonstrated yet again. WalMart is far from being a Roland dealer. |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message Why don't you telephone John Gilby and advise him to use a Roland keyboard instead, Arny? He might not like the touch of the keyboard. He surely knows what exists and what he wants. I am sure you could get him a good deal from Walmart. Iain's ignorance of the US professional audio market demonstrated yet again. WalMart is far from being a Roland dealer. Since when has any knowledge of the 'US professional audio market' been a requirement or even a legitimate expectation of any poster to this *UK recreational* newsgroup? |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "Iain Churches" wrote in message Why don't you telephone John Gilby and advise him to use a Roland keyboard instead, Arny? He might not like the touch of the keyboard. He surely knows what exists and what he wants. I am sure you could get him a good deal from Walmart. Iain's ignorance of the US professional audio market demonstrated yet again. WalMart is far from being a Roland dealer. Since when has any knowledge of the 'US professional audio market' been a requirement or even a legitimate expectation of any poster to this *UK recreational* newsgroup? Especially since I was winding him up:-) Looks like I succeeded! Iain |
Technics direct drive turntables
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... In article , Iain Churches wrote: "Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... In article , David Looser wrote: Indeed, because the mass-market transition from buying music on physical media to downloads is well advanced. CD will, in the near future, itself be a niche market catering mainly, I guess, to classical music buyers. I'm personally hoping it will be an array of *small* companies who are enthusiasts and will happily sell you a disc or a download to use as you choose since their real interest is in ensuring the *music* is available. What do you mean by "use as you choose", Jim. I mean that they provide the 'music' in a form like LPCM wave or Flac with no DRM. They provide you with whatever sample rate and bitdepth you choose. I agree with your comment about DRM, but wonder if the rest makes sense commercially? And you are then free to use that as you choose. So might both have a 96k/24bit version to play on any computer-based system you own, or generate DVDs to play on your own players, or CDs, or make mp3s or aacs or whatever *you* use for your *own* listening. An end to 'now buy another version'. Understood. But these are all separate products. When you go to a shoe shop, do you ask for a pair of brogues in black, size nine, and expect them to include a pair in brown, and another in beige for the same price? Maybe even, "choose to buy the CD and it comes with either a DVD with high rez lpcm wave files or a code to download the hi rez version whenever you choose". On of the snags of downloading is the lack of a good booklet and having to put a copy onto CDR/DVDR if you want something off HD to 'own'. It's more than a snag, it's a major disadvantage, and something that companies producing vinyl have used to greatly enhance the PQ of their product.. I received a review copy of a privately produced 2LP jazz set with a thick 12" booklet with text and photos, probably worth the price of the whole package. Looking at Linnrecords the thought I kept having was "why not given the option to buy a CD plus a DVD with the 88k/24 or 192k/24 wave/flac version, all in a nice CD case with the booklet?" No DRM or 'rights management'. They just get in the way of honest users, and don't actually stop those seriously intent on piracy. Agreed:-) The point is to put the paying customer into the driving seat. Or let the lunatics run the asylum? The other problem is that no company will be able to make large longterm project investment, over say ten years. It is important especially in classical repertoire, that young talent, singers, solo performers, conductors, orchestral musicians, be heard in major projects, opera, etc. Without subsidy from various EU cultural foundations, (and Arts Council in the UK) funding for such projects will not be viable. I know that for many years some companies did this as a 'prestige' thing. However I've noticed since that small companies like Chandos, and also 'band run' labels dedicated to specific groups of people are working. Yes indeed. That's encouraging, they do work but only within a limited sphere. Chandos are a good example as they have been making really excellent recordings for many years. Naxos also are interesting because they have done well out of choosing 'unknown' artists and kept down their costs. Different approaches, but both have worked OK. The artists are the ones who lose out. There are rarely if ever firm contracts above the current deal, so artists must go from label to label if the wish to keep recording. The sense of continuity that Solti had with Decca will sadly disappear. I doubt very much, Jim, with your sense of fairplay, you would consider a budget label artist's contract to be fair if you saw one. So I do hope/expect that a number of small concerns will go on making and releasing recordings. Also note the declared wish of the BBC that their 'archive' should get as close as possible to 'all on line'. That's a monumental task. But as the Beeb is keen to cash in on its resources, I am sure it will be done. Think of what that could mean in the future given all the recordings they hold of proms and other concerts they sponsored. I think of it often. The amount of material held even within the EBU is beyond belief. Russian classical archives are probably the largest of all. I was listening to their 320k aac stream again yesterday having made some improvements to the system I'm using. Once again I was very impressed by the sound and the performance. BTW In this case a performance of Holmboe's 1st Symphony. It is difficult for a broadcast to reach the standard of a dedicated recording. You made an interesting choice in Vagn Holboe Jim. I find his music fascinating and can hear the influence of Sibelius, Delius and also Shostakovich in his work. There is hope that the string quartet which he was writing at his death, will be completed by one of his countrymen. It seems that copious notes and roughs exist, and so hopefully the task of completing the fair copy score as VH would have written it, will not be an impossible one. My only concern wrt the destruction of giants like EMI is that their back catalogue doen't become unavailable. No fear of that. The catalogue is a huge financial asset. It will be divided up, and a host of smaller specialised labels will make careful re-issues. Or, a holding company will retain the ownership and sign lease deals. FWIW I am also concerned about how many recordings are generally unavailable with no clear prospect of being audible by most of us. Not much you can do about that, except buy a turntable:-) In a few days I shall have pressings of the Kopylov string quartets of which Arny's Google told him no complete set existed:-) Some classical concert promoters offer leather bound programme folders, with pockets for the tickets, the programme and the CD. For a special occasion, these make a nice keepsake. No fancy leather folders. But when the SCO or BBCScotSO visit town they have CDs on sale at discounted prices. People do seem to buy them. Concert sales, even though many are impulse buys, are significant. Usually the recordings are sold at a slightly reduced price as there is no retailer involved. Good additional income for any orchestra, I suspect most casual pop/rock listeners would prefer to get 'free' mp3s at low rates. These listeners make up the majority of the market. That is my greater concern TBH. Music is not taught in UK schools as it was 'when I were a lad'. Maybe that's a good thing. I remember when I was at school that most students used to consider music as a free period. Surely it makes better sense, as music is not a compulsory subject, to teach it to those who have an interest or aptitude. There has been a decline in interest in non-pop music due to lack of exposure. Erm. Sorry Jim, but I think you are mistaken there. People on UK music newsgroups write constantly about the difficulty in getting a place in even their local amateur classical ensemble, most of which have waiting lists, run auditions at grade VI and can pick and choose. Iain |
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