Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
I cannot say if one item is better than another. I can say I prefer the
sound of one item over another and in that context I preferred my Linn to
other TTs at the time and if I'm honest it is still in many ways nicer
sounding than CD.


I know you said that you're not continuing in this thread but just out of
curiousity Bob, which other turntables did you listen to at the time?
I'm only asking this as I never heard one in the early 70s and wondered what
you compared it against. When I first heard one was in the early 80s and
although I thought it was a great turntable, the two major competitors at
the time (in the UK) were the Roxan Zerxes and the Pink Triangle. I
prefered both of these over the LP12, which I thought was the least
transparent of the three. I never got to hear a Townshend (but have
recently bought one that needs and arm and cartridge fitting) so couldn't
include that.
I've also never heard a Garrard 301 or 401 or any of the esoteric elite
turtables but have heard a Technics SP10 and a Thorens TD125 and still think
the original PT was the one that stood and still stands out.

D

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
Any turntable that goes round at the right speed, with minimal speed
variation (wow) and rumble, will sound the same as any other.


Both building vibrations and air movement are chaotic, so unless you live in
a totally isolated vacuum (in which you wouldn't be able to hear anything
anyway) then no they will not.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message


Same thing with Bill Gates - even my sister in law's
American husband hates him and to my knowledge they've
never met!

The world is full of people who hate their betters.

It's not the man they hate, its his sucess. One word: envy.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message

Well, if you equate "a predictable response from the same
gaggle of familiar names" with being a lynch mob. To me
the term "lynch mob" implies a group conspiring to
destroy their victim, and I haven't seen that, or
anything close, here.

It appears that Keith is characterizing the people on this group who unlike
him actually understand how things work as a lynch mob. I don't know how far
we want to go in the direction of talking up his pity party.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David" wrote in message
...
"Bob Latham" wrote in message
I cannot say if one item is better than another. I can say I prefer the
sound of one item over another and in that context I preferred my Linn to
other TTs at the time and if I'm honest it is still in many ways nicer
sounding than CD.


I know you said that you're not continuing in this thread but just out of
curiousity Bob, which other turntables did you listen to at the time?
I'm only asking this as I never heard one in the early 70s and wondered
what you compared it against. When I first heard one was in the early 80s
and although I thought it was a great turntable, the two major competitors
at the time (in the UK) were the Roxan Zerxes and the Pink Triangle. I
prefered both of these over the LP12, which I thought was the least
transparent of the three. I never got to hear a Townshend (but have
recently bought one that needs and arm and cartridge fitting) so couldn't
include that.
I've also never heard a Garrard 301 or 401 or any of the esoteric elite
turtables but have heard a Technics SP10 and a Thorens TD125 and still
think the original PT was the one that stood and still stands out.


Of all the turntables I have had I remember two of them which 'sounded'
particularly nice: a 'pagoda style' Systemdek with very light springing and
a Pink Triangle - LPT1, I believe it was.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
...
"Bob Latham" wrote in message
I cannot say if one item is better than another. I can say I prefer the
sound of one item over another and in that context I preferred my Linn
to
other TTs at the time and if I'm honest it is still in many ways nicer
sounding than CD.


I know you said that you're not continuing in this thread but just out of
curiousity Bob, which other turntables did you listen to at the time?
I'm only asking this as I never heard one in the early 70s and wondered
what you compared it against. When I first heard one was in the early
80s and although I thought it was a great turntable, the two major
competitors at the time (in the UK) were the Roxan Zerxes and the Pink
Triangle. I prefered both of these over the LP12, which I thought was
the least transparent of the three. I never got to hear a Townshend (but
have recently bought one that needs and arm and cartridge fitting) so
couldn't include that.
I've also never heard a Garrard 301 or 401 or any of the esoteric elite
turtables but have heard a Technics SP10 and a Thorens TD125 and still
think the original PT was the one that stood and still stands out.


Of all the turntables I have had I remember two of them which 'sounded'
particularly nice: a 'pagoda style' Systemdek with very light springing
and a Pink Triangle - LPT1, I believe it was.

Do you mean a PT1 or an LPT?
The LPT (Little Pink Thing) was an unsuspended TT competing with the like of
a Linn Basic or Rega Planar 3.
The PT1 (which was never called a PT1 but just a Pink Triangle) was the
original light weight suspended subchassis competing with the Linn.

If you mean the PT1, then yes I agree and still have one as my reference
deck, never heard a TT to match it. :o)
The PT2 was almost the same but with an outboard AC motor that some people
"upgraded" theirs too but a lot of people are now reverting to the original
DC motor.

I never thought much of the Systemdek that you are talking about (or the LPT
for that matter), I thought the IX was far better.

D

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message
Any turntable that goes round at the right speed, with minimal speed
variation (wow) and rumble, will sound the same as any other.


Both building vibrations and air movement are chaotic, so unless you live
in a totally isolated vacuum (in which you wouldn't be able to hear
anything anyway) then no they will not.

Hmm... I can see that those who live in particular places, near the top of a
tower-block or hard by a railway line or road carrying heavy traffic, might
have a problem with vibration, and that some turntables *might* react to
that better to it that others. But I cannot, for the life of me, see how air
movement can be a problem, unless you play records out of doors on a windy
day with the deck cover open.

I'd be interested in seeing your evidence that either makes an audible
difference. I'm also tempted to suggest that if either is a problem for you
try playing CDs instead ;-)

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"David" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message
Any turntable that goes round at the right speed, with minimal speed
variation (wow) and rumble, will sound the same as any other.


Both building vibrations and air movement are chaotic, so unless you live
in a totally isolated vacuum (in which you wouldn't be able to hear
anything anyway) then no they will not.

Hmm... I can see that those who live in particular places, near the top of
a tower-block or hard by a railway line or road carrying heavy traffic,
might have a problem with vibration, and that some turntables *might*
react to that better to it that others. But I cannot, for the life of me,
see how air movement can be a problem, unless you play records out of
doors on a windy day with the deck cover open.

I'd be interested in seeing your evidence that either makes an audible
difference. I'm also tempted to suggest that if either is a problem for
you try playing CDs instead ;-)

David.


Try turning your volume knob to number 11.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message

Are you seriously suggesting that using a Linn turntable
rather than a Technics one makes any difference at all to
the "dynamics, imaging and tone"?

It is possible, and some potential explanations follow.

The cartridge, and to a
lesser extent the arm will make an audible difference,
but not the turntable.

When people talk about their perceptions of differences in turntable sound
quality, they are generally talking about the entire ensemble - table, arm,
cartridge, often the whole rest of the audio system is different as well.
No way is the comparison time-synched, level-matched and bias-controlled.

Any turntable that goes round at
the right speed, with minimal speed variation (wow) and
rumble, will sound the same as any other.

Plus/minus the other system differences and other issues such as isolation
from environmental vibrations.

I'm probably the only regular poster who has done full-monte comparisons of
LP playback equipment, right down to using LPs that were fresh out of the
wrappers and had the same stamper numbers.

Do it all right and things often sound shockingly similar:

http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_phca.htm

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
I'm probably the only regular poster who has done full-monte comparisons
of LP playback equipment, right down to using LPs that were fresh out of
the wrappers and had the same stamper numbers.

Do it all right and things often sound shockingly similar:


So you admit that they don't sound the same then? Well done!

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in
message

Are you seriously suggesting that using a Linn turntable
rather than a Technics one makes any difference at all to
the "dynamics, imaging and tone"?

It is possible, and some potential explanations follow.

The cartridge, and to a
lesser extent the arm will make an audible difference,
but not the turntable.

When people talk about their perceptions of differences in turntable sound
quality, they are generally talking about the entire ensemble - table,
arm, cartridge, often the whole rest of the audio system is different as
well. No way is the comparison time-synched, level-matched and
bias-controlled.


Absolutely. Creating those 'identical' conditions is beyond most ordinary
'hifi enthusiasts' in their own home.

My own method is/was to compare similar items over a few of some weeks or
months, during which time other items in the replay chain might have been
changed anyway. I simply chose the one I *liked best* as the winner, when
making comparisons. (Not interested in *measurements*!)



Any turntable that goes round at
the right speed, with minimal speed variation (wow) and
rumble, will sound the same as any other.

Plus/minus the other system differences and other issues such as isolation
from environmental vibrations.

I'm probably the only regular poster who has done full-monte comparisons
of LP playback equipment, right down to using LPs that were fresh out of
the wrappers and had the same stamper numbers.

Do it all right and things often sound shockingly similar:

http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_phca.htm



See above....

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David" wrote

Try turning your volume knob to number 11.

Many, many years ago there was a lot of talk in the HiFi mags about acoustic
feedback to record decks. So I tried an experiment, using radio as the
source I turned my system up as loud as I could tolerate it (much louder
than I would ever have chosen to listen). Then whilst this was blasting away
I played the HFS69 test record (tone and silent grooves tracks) on my
Thorens TD150 (TP13 arm and Shure M75 cartridge) and recorded the output.
Afterwards I listened to the tape playback to see if I could detect any
signs of acoustic feedback from the speakers - there wasn't a trace, the
"silent" groove had the expected surface noise, but no hint of anything from
the very loud radio. Similarly the tone suffered from the expected problems
that you have to put up with from vinyl and analogue tape, but again nothing
that hinted of acoustic feedback.

My conclusion was that all this stuff about acoustic feedback was just
another version of the paranoia that seems to affect HiFi obsessive when
they become convinced that their HiFi system would sound a lot better if
only they change something (which probably involves spending a lot of
money).

So no, I do not accept that your previous comment about vibration and air
movements somehow or other becomes valid when you turn the volume up.

And quite seriously if you think that record decks do suffer in this way why
bother with them? There are plenty of alternative audio sources around these
days.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"David" wrote

Try turning your volume knob to number 11.

Many, many years ago there was a lot of talk in the HiFi mags about
acoustic feedback to record decks. So I tried an experiment, using radio
as the source I turned my system up as loud as I could tolerate it (much
louder than I would ever have chosen to listen). Then whilst this was
blasting away I played the HFS69 test record (tone and silent grooves
tracks) on my Thorens TD150 (TP13 arm and Shure M75 cartridge) and
recorded the output. Afterwards I listened to the tape playback to see if
I could detect any signs of acoustic feedback from the speakers - there
wasn't a trace, the "silent" groove had the expected surface noise, but no
hint of anything from the very loud radio. Similarly the tone suffered
from the expected problems that you have to put up with from vinyl and
analogue tape, but again nothing that hinted of acoustic feedback.

My conclusion was that all this stuff about acoustic feedback was just
another version of the paranoia that seems to affect HiFi obsessive when
they become convinced that their HiFi system would sound a lot better if
only they change something (which probably involves spending a lot of
money).

So no, I do not accept that your previous comment about vibration and air
movements somehow or other becomes valid when you turn the volume up.

And quite seriously if you think that record decks do suffer in this way
why bother with them? There are plenty of alternative audio sources around
these days.

The problem I see with your experiment is that your source did not
necessarily have the same spectra as would be observed with a turntable
operating on the verge of acoustic (or architectural) feedback. I have a
number of friends with truely heroic subwoofers and none of them can use a
TT as a source without significant high pass filtering.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

I'm probably the only regular poster who has done full-monte comparisons
of LP playback equipment, right down to using LPs that were fresh out of
the wrappers and had the same stamper numbers.

Do it all right and things often sound shockingly similar:


So you admit that they don't sound the same then? Well done!

Check the reference I provided.


http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_phca.htm



Not always, but they sometimes do.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote

I have a number of friends with truely heroic subwoofers and none of them
can use a TT as a source without significant high pass filtering.

Then I suggest that either your friends are ignoring basic common-sense with
regard to relative positioning and support isolation between the TT and the
speakers. Or they are listening at the sort of sound-levels that cause
permanent hearing damage, probably both.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote

I have a number of friends with truely heroic subwoofers and none of them
can use a TT as a source without significant high pass filtering.

Then I suggest that either your friends are ignoring basic common-sense
with regard to relative positioning and support isolation between the TT
and the speakers.

Try again. These are practicing, degreed engineers specializing in audio.

With all due respect I suspect that you have no practical technical
experience with subwoofers capable of 120+ dB @ 10 Hz with low distortion.

Or they are listening at the sort of sound-levels that cause permanent
hearing damage, probably both.

Try again.

I suspect that you have never even listened to subwoofers capable of 120+
dB @ 10 Hz with low distortion.

The ear is very tolerant of very high SPLs at low frequencies. That's why
you can open the windows of your car at 60 mph and not be permanently
deafened.

Look at the Fletcher Munson curves and reasonably extrapolate them to 10 Hz.
Note what the approximate threshold of hearing is at 10 Hz.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:


With all due respect I suspect that you have no practical technical
experience with subwoofers capable of 120+ dB @ 10 Hz with low
distortion.

Certainly true in my case.

Look at the Fletcher Munson curves and reasonably extrapolate them to 10
Hz. Note what the approximate threshold of hearing is at 10 Hz.

True enough. However I'm wondering how often this is needed for music. I
can see that some organ notes may require high levels below 20Hz, and
perhaps some special cases like thwacks on big drums. But beyond that is it
more likely to be a 'requirement' for the bangs and thuds of film
soundtracks than mere music? The lowest bass guitar notes I know of
off-hand is at about 30-35Hz IIRC on a Little Feat album.

Am I also correct in suspecting that by the time you get down to such low
frequencies the effect on LP replay is primarily because we are in the
region of the resonances of the the arm-stylus and TT suspension?

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:


With all due respect I suspect that you have no practical technical
experience with subwoofers capable of 120+ dB @ 10 Hz with low
distortion.

Certainly true in my case.

Look at the Fletcher Munson curves and reasonably extrapolate them to 10
Hz. Note what the approximate threshold of hearing is at 10 Hz.

True enough. However I'm wondering how often this is needed for music. I
can see that some organ notes may require high levels below 20Hz, and
perhaps some special cases like thwacks on big drums. But beyond that is
it
more likely to be a 'requirement' for the bangs and thuds of film
soundtracks than mere music? The lowest bass guitar notes I know of
off-hand is at about 30-35Hz IIRC on a Little Feat album.

Am I also correct in suspecting that by the time you get down to such low
frequencies the effect on LP replay is primarily because we are in the
region of the resonances of the the arm-stylus and TT suspension?


You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic instrument capable of
creating these sorts of levels at sub-audible frequencies is the pipe organ.
And the conventional vinyl replay system creates a lot of sub-audible noise
whilst being incapable of replaying recorded material at these frequencies
(even assuming they were there on the disc in the first place, normally the
cutting engineer would filter them out if present on the tape).

"Heroic" sub-woofers of the type mentioned by Arny are normally only found
in cinemas, where they are driven by the "LFE" (low-frequency effects) track
(the point one of the 5.1 soundtrack). This is used to give "body" to things
like explosions etc, rarely music.

So my thoughts on this is that anyone who actually wants to use "heroic"
subwoofers should avoid sourcing them with vinyl. I would have thought that
*very* few people are in a position to use such levels at sub10Hz
frequencies in a domestic audio system (they are hardly family, or
neighbour, friendly), so whilst Arny is technically correct, the issue is
irrelevant to vinyl replay.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

David Looser said...

I would have thought that
*very* few people are in a position to use such levels at sub10Hz
frequencies in a domestic audio system (they are hardly family, or
neighbour, friendly), so whilst Arny is technically correct, the issue is
irrelevant to vinyl replay.

I route all audio signals through my stereo system; TV/radio/ video
games etc. A few years ago I was given a crapola "sub woofer" by
someone, so connected it up. While it did add something to movies where
you are expecting semi-realistic thumps, for general use it was so
annoying that I dumped it fairly rapidly. It emphasised all the
unintended "noises off" which occur but are rarely noticed; such as
wind noise in outside broadcasts and the occasional thumps and bangs in
live studio stuff, microphone knocking, etc. But most annoying was the
bloody non stop drumming on TV intros and themes such as the news and
those crashes which signal rounds in Weakest Link and also in adverts.
Also as Arnie says LP playback was a problem, always on the verge of
breaking into feedback it seemed, it is vaguely amusing watching the
bass drivers on the main speakers making heroic efforts to achieve 1"
excursion but worrying. The final straw was an episode late one night
when listening to Janice Long on Radio 2; Janice played a new track and
was so taken with it that she banged out a drum roll on the studio desk
which must have bypassed the microphone suspension/isolation system and
was transmitted in all its room shaking glory, I nearly crapped myself
and Henry the cat who liked lounging on the sub in the corner got the
fright of his life.


--
Ken O'Meara
http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"UnsteadyKen" wrote in message
m...
David Looser said...

I would have thought that
*very* few people are in a position to use such levels at sub10Hz
frequencies in a domestic audio system (they are hardly family, or
neighbour, friendly), so whilst Arny is technically correct, the issue is
irrelevant to vinyl replay.

I route all audio signals through my stereo system; TV/radio/ video
games etc. A few years ago I was given a crapola "sub woofer" by
someone, so connected it up. While it did add something to movies where
you are expecting semi-realistic thumps, for general use it was so
annoying that I dumped it fairly rapidly. It emphasised all the
unintended "noises off" which occur but are rarely noticed; such as
wind noise in outside broadcasts and the occasional thumps and bangs in
live studio stuff, microphone knocking, etc. But most annoying was the
bloody non stop drumming on TV intros and themes such as the news and
those crashes which signal rounds in Weakest Link and also in adverts.
Also as Arnie says LP playback was a problem, always on the verge of
breaking into feedback it seemed, it is vaguely amusing watching the
bass drivers on the main speakers making heroic efforts to achieve 1"
excursion but worrying. The final straw was an episode late one night
when listening to Janice Long on Radio 2; Janice played a new track and
was so taken with it that she banged out a drum roll on the studio desk
which must have bypassed the microphone suspension/isolation system and
was transmitted in all its room shaking glory, I nearly crapped myself
and Henry the cat who liked lounging on the sub in the corner got the
fright of his life.


I suspect you were getting a room-resonance problem. When sub-woofers were
first introduced into cinema sound systems it was found necessary to include
a parametric equaliser in the feed to the sub-woofer to notch out
frequencies around the room resonance, otherwise you get this irritating
"one-note bass" effect at the frequency of the room resonance.

In cinemas the main speakers have a reasonable bass response, 20Hz or so,
and the sub-woofer is connected only to the LFE channel, so sub-LF crap on
the main channels isn't fed to the sub-woofer. But in home cinema systems
it's common practice to use small speakers for the main channels with little
LF below 70-100Hz or so, and the AV amp will divert the bass from the main
channels into the sub-woofer. It's very hard to get that to sound right IMO.

I was amused by a recent article in "Cinema Technology" about getting the
best from the multi-channel uncompressed audio that is part of digital
cinema. The writer at one point, talking about speaker placement, commented
that "the sub-woofer can go anywhere - preferably in the skip", a sentiment
that I have a lot of sympathy for.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message

In article
, Arny
Krueger
wrote:


With all due respect I suspect that you have no
practical technical experience with subwoofers capable
of 120+ dB @ 10 Hz with low distortion.

Certainly true in my case.

Look at the Fletcher Munson curves and reasonably
extrapolate them to 10 Hz. Note what the approximate
threshold of hearing is at 10 Hz.

True enough. However I'm wondering how often this is
needed for music. I can see that some organ notes may
require high levels below 20Hz, and perhaps some special
cases like thwacks on big drums. But beyond that is it
more likely to be a 'requirement' for the bangs and thuds
of film soundtracks than mere music? The lowest bass
guitar notes I know of off-hand is at about 30-35Hz IIRC
on a Little Feat album.

Please remember that I'm not describing my personal system. My personal
system contains a modest Paradigm 12"
subwoofer. So, I don't feel any need to justify the system I have been
talking about. I didn't even work on the subwoofer part of the
system. I did voice the upper part of that system, but the subsytem I voiced
has LF response that ends around 50 Hz.

These very large systems are IMO "ne plus ultra". IMO, they address every
reasonable need and then some. This
particular system can provide SPL's on the order of 130 dB @ 1 meter from 10
Hz to at least 20 KHz with low distortion. One benefit of this is that
nonlinear distortion at more reasonable listening levels is relatively low.

The system has carefully ontrolled directivity above 300 Hz and is used in a
room with significant acoustical treatment. It's owner has been
acquring parts and tuning and modifying it for over 20 years so funding it
has represented a nominal annual expense.

Furthermore, the system is sometimes used with the subwoofer levels set
artificially high in order to entertain, as opposed
to providing realistic reproduction, which is it also capable of. I don't
believe that it is operated at ear-damaging levels very
often, if frequency versus SPL is properly considered.

I haven't looked at spectral analysis of the program material or the
acoustical response of the entire system. Obviously, I'm intimately
familiar with the system's acoustic response spectral range above 50 Hz
since I voiced it based on listening and measurements.

What I do know is that the subwoofer drivers are capable of 30 mm Xmax, but
I've never seen actual cone motion in
excess of about 12 mm peak which is equivalent to 6 mm Xmax. At the time I
saw this, the bass impact in the listening
room was physically significant but not unpleasant.
First off, please notice that I am not describing my personal system. For
the record my personal system uses a modest but

Am I also correct in suspecting that by the time you get
down to such low frequencies the effect on LP replay is
primarily because we are in the region of the resonances
of the the arm-stylus and TT suspension?

Yes. That and resonances in the structure, etc.

People think that a turntable that is mounted resiliently, it will reject
acoustic feedback. In fact, resilient mounting will lose effectiveness as
you go below its resonant frequency. If you have a feedback path that has
enough low frequency extension, you will get feedback at frequencies that
are below the resonant frequency of the turntable's suspension.

One simple solution is to simply roll off the response of the LP playback
system at some "relatively high frequency" like 15-20 Hz.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic instrument capable of
creating these sorts of levels at sub-audible frequencies is the pipe
organ.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message
You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic instrument capable of
creating these sorts of levels at sub-audible frequencies is the pipe
organ.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

Is the title of a novel by Jeanette Winterson published in 1985. Not sure
what it has to do with the thread though.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message
You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic instrument capable of
creating these sorts of levels at sub-audible frequencies is the pipe
organ.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

The orchestral 60" bass-drum (Turkish or Italian Gran cassa)
and contrabass sarusaphone are also close contenders (not as
oranges, but as producers of sounds that are "less like notes and
more like sensations":-)

The Bosendorfer Grand Imperial concert piano is also pretty
impressive in its ability to make the earth (and even the orange) move
with C(0) at 16.45 Hz.

I cannot think of an organ in the UK ( most of which have the 30-note
standard pedalboard to accomodate cantus firmus) with a pedalboard
that goes below this.

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:


With all due respect I suspect that you have no practical technical
experience with subwoofers capable of 120+ dB @ 10 Hz with low
distortion.

Certainly true in my case.

Look at the Fletcher Munson curves and reasonably extrapolate them to 10
Hz. Note what the approximate threshold of hearing is at 10 Hz.

True enough. However I'm wondering how often this is needed for music. I
can see that some organ notes may require high levels below 20Hz, and
perhaps some special cases like thwacks on big drums. But beyond that is
it
more likely to be a 'requirement' for the bangs and thuds of film
soundtracks than mere music? The lowest bass guitar notes I know of
off-hand is at about 30-35Hz IIRC on a Little Feat album.

Not just Little Feat, Jim.

A five-string bas guitar with standard tuning has the lowest note
B(0) at 30.8Hz. Such instruments are not particularly common.

On the four string bass guitar, standard tuning, the lowest note E(1) is
41.2Hz.

Of the instruments of the orchestra, the harp has the lowest range.
Most orchestral harps with the exception of cross -strung instruments
are tuned diatonically with the lowest note at C(0) 32.7 Hz


So I wonder what type of music Arny can be referring to.

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
...
"Bob Latham" wrote in message
I cannot say if one item is better than another. I can say I prefer the
sound of one item over another and in that context I preferred my Linn
to
other TTs at the time and if I'm honest it is still in many ways nicer
sounding than CD.


I know you said that you're not continuing in this thread but just out of
curiousity Bob, which other turntables did you listen to at the time?
I'm only asking this as I never heard one in the early 70s and wondered
what you compared it against. When I first heard one was in the early
80s and although I thought it was a great turntable, the two major
competitors at the time (in the UK) were the Roxan Zerxes and the Pink
Triangle. I prefered both of these over the LP12, which I thought was
the least transparent of the three. I never got to hear a Townshend (but
have recently bought one that needs and arm and cartridge fitting) so
couldn't include that.
I've also never heard a Garrard 301 or 401 or any of the esoteric elite
turtables but have heard a Technics SP10 and a Thorens TD125 and still
think the original PT was the one that stood and still stands out.


Of all the turntables I have had I remember two of them which 'sounded'
particularly nice: a 'pagoda style' Systemdek with very light springing
and a Pink Triangle - LPT1, I believe it was.

The best two I have owned (and still do) are
Garrard 401/SME3012 arm/Sure V15/III and
EMT 948/997 arm/ShureV15

The best two I have ever heard in comparison tests (conducted at
a broadcast facility as a part of an AES regional seminar) were
SME 30/2 and Verdier Platine.

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

Try to get to hear an idler wheel deck if you haven't already: the
bass
will beat both direct and belt drive for impact ('spank') and
tightness
and you will hear far more clear detail in it - sticks on cymbals,
wooden percussion instruments, rimshots etc.


As I remember it idler-wheel decks (which used to be the standard
arrangement, remember the SP25?) went out of favour because of the
rumble.


Not quite the same on high quality 301/401s and Lencos.

Not quite, but the idler-wheel arangment is inherently noisier.

Belt-drives were so much quieter.

The fascinating thing is that your eulogy over idler-wheel decks
matches
the hype said about the (belt driven) Linn. So what can an observer
make
of all these claims and counter claims? My considered opinion is that
belief is a very powerful thing!



Eulogy? All I'm doing is saying try to get to hear one if you haven't
already, then you can make up your own mind. I'm not asking anyone to
believe what they can't hear for themselves.


I was just struck by the similarity of your language to those who rave


Rave?


about
other decks. Granted the devotees of the Linn go far more OTT than you
(the Linn isn't just a turntable, it's a magical machine that turns any
third-rate audio system into a music machine to satsfy the gods, or so
they tell me). However you still used basically the same sort of
wine-writers language - "impact", "tightness", "detail" etc. that doesn't
mean a damned thing, but sounds impressive.


Strange how you bashers respond to the use of ordinary language - is the
use of words like 'eulogy' and 'rave' some sort of counter-measure? I use
the language that best describes what I find, others do the same - some
wax more lyrical than others, what's the problem?



The 301 has been around for years and years. If it was half as good as
you claim why would anyone use anything else?


Marketing.


The 301 was the choice of a large percentage of studios
and broadcasters. Even the 401 did not totally replace it,
due to the longevity of the 301.

At that time, there were, with the exception of EMT, few
other turntables judged to be anything like as good.

Both the 301 and 401 are still in strong demand, and there
are a number of small firms who painstakingly refurbish them.

Now, with the exception of those with USB outputs,
the cheapo turntables have disappeared.

Vinyl has become a thriving niche market, with people
ready and willing to make a much larger investment
for a quality turntable (much more than they are willing
to pay for a CD player, after all, they all sound the same:-)

The manufacturers that are left are able to concentrate
on engineering quality instead of having to build down to a price.

SME and Verdier are excellent examples.

http://www.sme.ltd.uk/

http://www.jcverdier.com/

Just as Keith points out, new vinyl issues are usually sold
out within days of release. Twenty years after vinyl's
"demise" this seems remarkable..

In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an extent
that HMV have announced the closure of 60 retail outlets, and
three CD plants in the ÜK are faced with closure due to over
capacity.

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message


In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an
extent that HMV have announced the closure of 60 retail outlets,

So there has not been a strong transition of CD sales from brick-and-mortar
local store to superstore and web in Europe, as there has been in the US?

No such thing as anything like a Best Buy or Wal Mart "Big box" store in
Europe that wipes out neighborhood stores for miles around?

Of course there is, but LP bigots can only cite statistics that suit their
agenda.

Interesting how LP bigots are also so quick to cite the loss of sales on
physical media (CD) but always forget to mention the vast increase in sales
of downloads.

Perhaps the iTunes web site is blocked for internet access from Europe? ;-)

Of course not, but such offsetting gains don't suit their self-serving
agendas.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an
extent that HMV have announced the closure of 60 retail outlets,

So there has not been a strong transition of CD sales from
brick-and-mortar local store to superstore and web in Europe, as there has
been in the US?

No such thing as anything like a Best Buy or Wal Mart "Big box" store in
Europe that wipes out neighborhood stores for miles around?

Of course there is, but LP bigots can only cite statistics that suit their
agenda.

Interesting how LP bigots are also so quick to cite the loss of sales on
physical media (CD) but always forget to mention the vast increase in
sales of downloads.

Perhaps the iTunes web site is blocked for internet access from Europe?
;-)

Of course not, but such offsetting gains don't suit their self-serving
agendas.



Woah! I would say that Iain scored a 'palpable hit' hit - Arny's gone off
like he's got a slapped face!

As a confirmed vinyl bigot I can safely say I don't give a fig what is
happening to CD sales (especially in the US), but *downloads* have ****-all
to do with them - they are not CDs! It is my belief that CD sales are
plummeting and that they will soon end up a niche product like vinyl is
today.

Interestingly, there is currently an advert on the telly (or was recently -
I watch only the news and recorded progs) for a boxed set of 16 classic,
original artists Rock & Roll CDs for £29.95 - money back if not bowled over.
The tagline was 'save hundreds on the price of downloads'...!!!

As they say: what goes around* goes around....

:-)


*@ 33.33 rpm, natch

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote


snipt


The 301 was the choice of a large percentage of studios
and broadcasters. Even the 401 did not totally replace it,
due to the longevity of the 301.

At that time, there were, with the exception of EMT, few
other turntables judged to be anything like as good.

Both the 301 and 401 are still in strong demand, and there
are a number of small firms who painstakingly refurbish them.



With no shortage of takers!



Now, with the exception of those with USB outputs,
the cheapo turntables have disappeared.

Vinyl has become a thriving niche market, with people
ready and willing to make a much larger investment
for a quality turntable (much more than they are willing
to pay for a CD player, after all, they all sound the same:-)


Surely there is no-one here who cannot see how the hightened 'perception of
quality' playing a pristine record on a costly and massive high end
turntable greatly enhances the experience compared with shoving a CD into a
CD player - even an expensive one where 80% of the cost will be in the
fascia panel, LCD display and casing....


The manufacturers that are left are able to concentrate
on engineering quality instead of having to build down to a price.

SME and Verdier are excellent examples.

http://www.sme.ltd.uk/

http://www.jcverdier.com/


I'm not a 'boutique audio' person but I hafta say I do like some of that
Verdier kit!



Just as Keith points out, new vinyl issues are usually sold
out within days of release. Twenty years after vinyl's
"demise" this seems remarkable..


A talking head on the box some months ago said that demand for vinyl was
very steady.



In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an extent
that HMV have announced the closure of 60 retail outlets, and
three CD plants in the ÜK are faced with closure due to over
capacity.


Ultimately, given the stringent requirements (clean conditions/machinery)
for CD manufacture I think it would be easy to see them disappear completely
if it were not for the computer and audiovisual aspects of 'silver disk'
usage - I had no idea the process was so complex until I saw then on 'How
It's Made'!!

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an
extent that HMV have announced the closure of 60
retail outlets,

So there has not been a strong transition of CD sales
from brick-and-mortar local store to superstore and web
in Europe, as there has been in the US?

No such thing as anything like a Best Buy or Wal Mart
"Big box" store in Europe that wipes out neighborhood
stores for miles around? Of course there is, but LP bigots can only cite
statistics that suit their agenda.

Interesting how LP bigots are also so quick to cite the
loss of sales on physical media (CD) but always forget
to mention the vast increase in sales of downloads.

Perhaps the iTunes web site is blocked for internet
access from Europe? ;-)

Of course not, but such offsetting gains don't suit
their self-serving agendas.



Woah! I would say that Iain scored a 'palpable hit' hit -
Arny's gone off like he's got a slapped face!

It's the whining response from Iain's running dog that tells me I scored,
yet again.


As a confirmed vinyl bigot I can safely say I don't give
a fig what is happening to CD sales (especially in the
US),

What you said it not the issue. What Iain said is.

but *downloads* have ****-all to do with them - they
are not CDs!

You see, downloads are what LPs can never have and CDs clearly have: The
next generation technology.

It is my belief that CD sales are plummeting
and that they will soon end up a niche product like vinyl
is today.

If you haven't noticed, its not the polycarbonate that people buy and listen
to, its the bits. It's the bits that laid waste to the LP market. Matters
not whether the bits are on polycarbonate or the web, its the bits that
almost all of us listen to.

Interestingly, there is currently an advert on the telly
(or was recently - I watch only the news and recorded
progs) for a boxed set of 16 classic, original artists
Rock & Roll CDs for £29.95 - money back if not bowled
over. The tagline was 'save hundreds on the price of
downloads'...!!!

you watch ads? Your DVR is incapable of FF past them?

As they say: what goes around* goes around....

Downloads prove that nothing need go around for there to be good music.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an
extent that HMV have announced the closure of 60
retail outlets,

So there has not been a strong transition of CD sales
from brick-and-mortar local store to superstore and web
in Europe, as there has been in the US?

No such thing as anything like a Best Buy or Wal Mart
"Big box" store in Europe that wipes out neighborhood
stores for miles around? Of course there is, but LP bigots can only cite
statistics that suit their agenda.

Interesting how LP bigots are also so quick to cite the
loss of sales on physical media (CD) but always forget
to mention the vast increase in sales of downloads.

Perhaps the iTunes web site is blocked for internet
access from Europe? ;-)

Of course not, but such offsetting gains don't suit
their self-serving agendas.



Woah! I would say that Iain scored a 'palpable hit' hit -
Arny's gone off like he's got a slapped face!

It's the whining response from Iain's running dog that tells me I scored,
yet again.


Stop *projecting* Arny - you were the one whining.

(The phrase 'LP bigot' says it all! ;-)




As a confirmed vinyl bigot I can safely say I don't give
a fig what is happening to CD sales (especially in the
US),

What you said it not the issue. What Iain said is.

but *downloads* have ****-all to do with them - they
are not CDs!

You see, downloads are what LPs can never have and CDs clearly have: The
next generation technology.


Zzzzz.....

How many 50 Gig BD-REs do you use?




It is my belief that CD sales are plummeting
and that they will soon end up a niche product like vinyl
is today.

If you haven't noticed, its not the polycarbonate that people buy and
listen to, its the bits.


Stoppit - you are starting to sound like an idiot.



It's the bits that laid waste to the LP market. Matters
not whether the bits are on polycarbonate or the web, its the bits that
almost all of us listen to.


Talk it up all you like - downloads are not CDs. Downloads are killing CDs.



Interestingly, there is currently an advert on the telly
(or was recently - I watch only the news and recorded
progs) for a boxed set of 16 classic, original artists
Rock & Roll CDs for £29.95 - money back if not bowled
over. The tagline was 'save hundreds on the price of
downloads'...!!!

you watch ads? Your DVR is incapable of FF past them?


What DVR? Get with the programme, Arny - I watch selected TV recordings as
mpegs on a 'dedicated' Acer Revo computer piped out via HDMI to a DLP
projector. I have hundreds stacked on hard drives, waiting to go and I can
skip the ads (where there are ads) with a click or two on the progress bar
but sometimes they take my attention. Picture and sound quality (SS
amp/Buschhorn Mk2 speakers) on UK stuff is generally excellent (DVD
quality) - US not so good.

The same setup is used for the BBC iPlayer and the comparatively kludgy ITV
Player - also freebie movies from LoveFilm from time to time. About the only
thing I watch real time is the news - and even that's behind the 'Net!!



As they say: what goes around* goes around....

Downloads prove that nothing need go around for there to be good music.



I said as much here a number of years ago....

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message
You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic instrument capable of
creating these sorts of levels at sub-audible frequencies is the pipe
organ.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

The orchestral 60" bass-drum (Turkish or Italian Gran cassa)
and contrabass sarusaphone are also close contenders (not as
oranges, but as producers of sounds that are "less like notes and
more like sensations":-)

The Bosendorfer Grand Imperial concert piano is also pretty
impressive in its ability to make the earth (and even the orange) move
with C(0) at 16.45 Hz.


The human ear is extremly insensitive at frequencies below 20Hz, indeed
these very low frequencies are felt, more than heard. However it takes
considerable power to create a sound wave powerful enough to be felt in this
way. It's easy with an organ, just build a bloody great pipe and blow a lot
of air through it. However with a piano the only source of power is the
pianist's finger, and that's not going to be powerful enough.

But a piano note is not a pure tone, it is rich in harmonics, and it's well
known that a very low note can be implied by creating the harmonic structure
that might relate to a missing sub-audible fundamental, the human brain
"filling in" the missing fundamental. This trick is commonly employed in
organs and is, I strongly suspect, also how the Bosendorfer Grand Imperial
appears to create a note of 16.45Hz.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote

Surely there is no-one here who cannot see how the hightened 'perception
of quality' playing a pristine record on a costly and massive high end
turntable greatly enhances the experience compared with shoving a CD into
a CD player - even an expensive one where 80% of the cost will be in the
fascia panel, LCD display and casing....


So it's all about expensive toys?


David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

Surely there is no-one here who cannot see how the hightened 'perception
of quality' playing a pristine record on a costly and massive high end
turntable greatly enhances the experience compared with shoving a CD into
a CD player - even an expensive one where 80% of the cost will be in the
fascia panel, LCD display and casing....


So it's all about expensive toys?


Not with me it's not, my turntable is a twenty quid Lenco L72 with a plinth
I made from kitchen worktop offcuts - see the larger of the two here, the
smaller one is a kitchen worktop sample plinth:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/showntell/Lencoze.JPG

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

If you haven't noticed, its not the polycarbonate that people buy and
listen to, its the bits. It's the bits that laid waste to the LP market.
Matters not whether the bits are on polycarbonate or the web, its the bits
that almost all of us listen to.


That, as I see it, Arny, is the basic flaw in your whole
approach.People listen to the music, not the medium.

There is a huge amount of music that will never be released
on CD, but fortunately an LP on a good turntable gives
exceedingly goor results.



Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message
You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic instrument capable of
creating these sorts of levels at sub-audible frequencies is the pipe
organ.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

The orchestral 60" bass-drum (Turkish or Italian Gran cassa)
and contrabass sarusaphone are also close contenders (not as
oranges, but as producers of sounds that are "less like notes and
more like sensations":-)

The Bosendorfer Grand Imperial concert piano is also pretty
impressive in its ability to make the earth (and even the orange) move
with C(0) at 16.45 Hz.


The human ear is extremly insensitive at frequencies below 20Hz, indeed
these very low frequencies are felt, more than heard. However it takes
considerable power to create a sound wave powerful enough to be felt in
this way. It's easy with an organ, just build a bloody great pipe and blow
a lot of air through it. However with a piano the only source of power is
the pianist's finger, and that's not going to be powerful enough.

But a piano note is not a pure tone, it is rich in harmonics, and it's
well known that a very low note can be implied by creating the harmonic
structure that might relate to a missing sub-audible fundamental, the
human brain "filling in" the missing fundamental. This trick is commonly
employed in organs and is, I strongly suspect, also how the Bosendorfer
Grand Imperial appears to create a note of 16.45Hz.

Well actually it's simpler than that. It has an extra octave
at the bottom end:-) A quick calculation or a glance at Grove's
chart will show that the fundamental of C(0) is indeed 16.45Hz.


Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an
extent that HMV have announced the closure of 60 retail outlets,

So there has not been a strong transition of CD sales from
brick-and-mortar local store to superstore and web in Europe, as there has
been in the US?

Indeed there has. If you were a European you would know that HMV
*is* the superstore, or one of them, with incredible stocks, and very
knowledgeable and helpful sales personel. No on-line outlet can offer
this level of friendly service and expertise.

No such thing as anything like a Best Buy or Wal Mart "Big box" store in
Europe that wipes out neighborhood stores for miles around?

See above.

Interesting how LP bigots are also so quick to cite the loss of sales on
physical media (CD) but always forget to mention the vast increase in
sales of downloads.

Dowloads are at 128 and 256kbs so can hardly be claimed to be
a quality replacement for the CD.

but such offsetting gains don't suit their self-serving
agendas.

Is there are a reason for your terrible vinyl phobia, Arny?
It certanly seems like a red rag to a bull as far as you are
concerned.

LP bigots can only cite statistics that suit their
agenda.


I spend the yesterday evening listening to some excellent
Teddy Wilson tracks, privately recorded in Sweden, and pressed
on LP in small quantity. The likelyhood of their ever being released
on CD is very small indeed. Without a turntable I would not have
been able to enjoy some of the best piano jazz I have heard for
a very long time. Where, pray, is the bigotry in that?

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

David Looser wrote:

Modern turntables work no better than those of the 1970s,

I would be interested to know, David, have you even seen,
let alone auditioned, a Verdier or SME?

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"David" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message
You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic instrument capable
of creating these sorts of levels at sub-audible frequencies is the
pipe organ.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

The orchestral 60" bass-drum (Turkish or Italian Gran cassa) and
contrabass sarusaphone are also close contenders (not as oranges, but as
producers of sounds that are "less like notes and more like
sensations":-)

But how much of that is a component at around 10Hz that reaches a level
anything like 120dB (A?)?

The Bosendorfer Grand Imperial concert piano is also pretty impressive
in its ability to make the earth (and even the orange) move with C(0) at
16.45 Hz.

I can appreciate that it has a key for that. However I do wonder about both
the above question and the possibility that what is heard is actually a
perception from the harmonics. IIRC it is well established in the physio
and psycho acoustics that humans will 'hear' the fundamental of a series of
harmonics at LF even if the actual fundamental is absent.

Thus I do remain uncertain of the need to actually reproduce something like
10Hz at 120dB level for mere music in a domestic situation. I can see it
may be useful for disaster movies, though. 8-]

Slainte,

Jim

--
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