Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

Can you point at some evidence to resolve this? I have no idea what
occurs in this specific case.

You may wish then to direct your question to:
http://www.boesendorfer.com/en/contact.html

TBH for my present purposes it is sufficient that your responses
indicate that you don't know.

None of us, not even the physics professor, knows for sure.

You'd have to say which "physics professor" you mean, here. I'm not a
professor and had said I didn't know. So I presume you aren't referring to
me (?)

That's why I took the trouble to supply you with a link to Bösendorfer
customer relations dept.

Perhaps you didn't understand the point of my questions. Or indeed what
we had actually been talking about when you introduced the piano...

You had said that the piano in question had a key for a note down at
c16Hz. This was in the context of you commenting on what I and others had
written questioning the need to be able to reproduce levels like 120dB
at c10Hz for much music, and the audibility of such.

So I was wondering if you actually knew if the piano key in question
actually caused a significant (in the above terms) output *at* c16Hz. As
distinct from what I and others had pointed out - that some low notes
are 'faked' in other ways. If you did not know, I was wondering why you'd
mentioned the piano, or if you'd simply assumed it *did* produce c16Hz.

They will have the information you require at their finger tips, if you
have the genuine interest to take the matter up with them.

TBH for my present purposes it is sufficient that your response
indicates that you do not:-) It takes 15 secs to write an e-mail.

Yet you didn't bother to ask them yourself despite being the one who
introduced their wonderful product into the discussion on the need
for levels like 120dB at c10Hz... Must admit your behaviour had fooled
me into thinking you'd assumed that the piano *did* generate an audible
c16Hz component when you wrote what you did. I was trying to check
if that really was what you had thought. Otherwise I'm afraid I'm not
now sure why you mentioned the piano given the context without saying
that it (possibly) faked the note.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

Can you point at some evidence to resolve this? I have
no idea what occurs in this specific case.

You may wish then to direct your question to:
http://www.boesendorfer.com/en/contact.html

TBH for my present purposes it is sufficient that your
responses indicate that you don't know.

None of us, not even the physics professor, knows for
sure.

You speak only for yourself, Iain.

That's why I took the trouble to supply you with a link to
Bösendorfer customer relations dept.

Not even Bosendorfer can disobey the laws of physics.

Iain, its a measure of your consumate cluelessness that for all of your
pretentions to recording expertise, you have no clue as to the technical
properties of what pianos really do along the lines of making sound waves.
I'm not sure that you even have a good grip on the concepts of frequency or
amplitude.

I'm not sure that Bosendorfer's PR department, which is all that any of us
can engage, can or will shed any useful light.

Examing the public record, I find a scholarly paper from Yale university
that shows a Bosendorfer 290 concert grand measuring out to to be rather
deficient in bass as compared to a Roland keyboard and a Yamaha upright
piano.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

What one sees above Iain is more proof of your ignorance
about the normal scale of doing things in the US.

Why should that be of the slightest interest to me?
This is a) a UK group, and b) I live in Scandinavia,
where N.America and N.American values are held in low
esteem.

Iain, your willful ignorance of actual conditions in the US *proves* that
your low opinion of the US is based on your arrogance, prejudice and
ignorance, which seem to abound.

I wonder how may record salesmen/women at your
famous Walmart could direct a customer to what
he/she considers the best three versions of
the Quartets of Alexander Kopylov?

Why would anyone need to ask a salesperson such a thing given the
availability of the Internet?

Google answers the question from my breakfast table in less than a second.
Why leave home to find it out?

Or Iain, are you suggesting that the Internet is not readily available in
the UK or Scandanavia? I think not.

What's unavailable is an example of Iain using his brain in a fashion that
is acceptable in the 21st century. :-(

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message


Exactly, but not so 'easily 'doable' in the real world
unless you have the resources of a trade magazine, then
you'll have the journos to write it all up in a
completely subjective, flowery and meaningless way.

It is ironic perhaps that the most notable examples of trade magazines
publishing articles about bias controlled listening tests of audio gear were
written by outside contractors (not staff) who relied on the resources of
amateurs (The SMWTMS and TAS audio clubs) to perform the tests whose results
they published. Other than final editing and printing, the major service
that the trade magazines provided was to intervene with audio manufacturers
to provide the gear that was tested.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message


Despite being a niche market, the public have accepted
the considerable rise in the cost of an LP as the
improvement in quality both in the pressing and
presentation is there for all too see/hear.

Except there was never any such improvement. Elegant folios and high quality
pressings are not innovations of the declining days of the LP. They were
available in the days when LPs were all we had.

It was widely thought that an increase in price might kill off
existing sales. This has proved not to be the case.

When LP sales dropped by 99% or *more* as they have for the LP, most sane
people would say that the sales were "killed off". They were not killed off
to the point of complete and total extinction, but they were effectively
killed off.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message
"Iain Churches" wrote

Would it not be more valuable to you to get up out
of that comfy armchair and do your own tests, and
reach your own conclusions?

It would seem that these would be good things for Iain to do, were he
technically able to do such things.

Iain claims to have a superior or at least representitive collection of fine
LP playback equipment at his disposal. He also claims to be able to engage
the services of comptent technical staff.

The fact that Iain is not rising to the occasion casts doubts on his
numerous claims relating to equipment and staff.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article ,
"David Looser" wrote:

I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at a time when CDs
cost roughly double that of the equivalent LP. Possibly people like the idea
of a buying a 'premium' (read more expensive) product.

That coincided with record companies no longer accepting returns of
unsold lps. Shops abandoned the medium rather take the risk.

Stephen

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"MiNe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Looser" wrote:

I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at a time when CDs
cost roughly double that of the equivalent LP. Possibly people like the
idea
of a buying a 'premium' (read more expensive) product.

That coincided with record companies no longer accepting returns of
unsold lps. Shops abandoned the medium rather take the risk.


*People* abandoned the medium because the CD was taking over - that lead to
unsold LPs. Had the LP still be selling well there wouldn't have been unsold
LPs to return.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

What one sees above Iain is more proof of your ignorance
about the normal scale of doing things in the US.

Why should that be of the slightest interest to me?
This is a) a UK group, and b) I live in Scandinavia,
where N.America and N.American values are held in low
esteem.

Iain, your willful ignorance of actual conditions in the US *proves* that
your low opinion of the US is based on your arrogance, prejudice and
ignorance, which seem to abound.

I wonder how may record salesmen/women at your
famous Walmart could direct a customer to what
he/she considers the best three versions of
the Quartets of Alexander Kopylov?

Why would anyone need to ask a salesperson such a thing given the
availability of the Internet?

Google answers the question from my breakfast table in less than a second.
Why leave home to find it out?

Or Iain, are you suggesting that the Internet is not readily available in
the UK or Scandanavia? I think not.

What's unavailable is an example of Iain using his brain in a fashion that
is acceptable in the 21st century. :-(



What a palaver....

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:


Exactly, but not so 'easily 'doable' in the real world unless you
have the resources of a trade magazine,

Actually quite 'doable' by amateurs **if** they want to actually do
so. But not something achieved by casual listening at home where the
object is simply to enjoy the music.


Make that 'doable by *wealthy* amateurs and I'm with you.

Yes their either have to be 'wealthy' enough to buy the items they
compare,
or be able to arrange for a loan or use of equipment from someone else.


The shortage of people/businesses prepared to lend a 30-40K turntable (or
two) to a complete stranger simply so that he may satisfy his curiosity is
where the whole thing starts to come apart. You really do need the 'pulling
power' of a magazine where at least the lender will get a bit of useful
publicity and can be assured of a glowing reference or at least only the
mildest of criticism from someone with possible future advertising in
mind....

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message

"David Looser" wrote in
message ...

So if you want to claim that modern TTs sound better
than those of 40 years ago I suggest that some evidence
would help your cause. I don't mean personal anecdotes,
but a properly conducted listening test.

Exactly, but not so 'easily 'doable' in the real world
unless you have the resources of a trade magazine, then
you'll have the journos to write it all up in a
completely subjective, flowery and meaningless way.

Our audio club did TT-related DBTs back in the 70s:

http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_phca.htm

The same basic methodology could be used to compare
turntables.
But I don't actually *know* that because I haven't
tried any really expensive turntables...

I've been to enough high end audio shows and visited
with enough well-heeled LP true believers to have
listened to some really expensive stuff.

No matter what they say, it isn't the second coming... The LPs still
sound like LPs.

Thankfully - no point in all that faff and hassle if the
result sounded like a CD/download is there?

You keep changing the subject.


Huh? I'm only responding to a remark *you* made!




I played records all afternoon today (seriously ****ty
weather) - the moment the needle went down I was
'gripped' by the sound!
:-)

Easily explainable by simple sentimentality.



Grant me the possibility that I'm not some starry-eyed *returner* to vinyl -
whenever I have done 'hifi' (there have been breaks) I have done LPs. Hence
it is not 'nostalgia' for me....

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

I played records all afternoon today (seriously ****ty weather) - the
moment the needle went down I was 'gripped' by the sound!


Morning Keith


Afternoon Iain,



What better way to spend an afternoon?


Quite so, but if only it wasn't so damn *dark* these days - today is another
one!



When I passed these across the desk, it
was always the vinyl that caught their
attention.


I was in a 'record' shop (selling mainly CDs) in Cambridge and had a very
young sales assistant tell me once 'It sounds better on vinyl!'


I think that more labels would like to be
able to issue material on both CD and vinyl
but even if the retail price of the LP is double that
of the CD, the production, pressing and printing costs
are ten times. Convincing the bean counters is
no easy task:-)


I'm sure you're right. Whenever the subject of vinyl comes up on the telly
there is usually someone saying that people like 'something they can hold in
their hand' and that downloads/MP3s significantly fail to satisfy in that
area.

Vinyl is small but it is a steady niche product these days. It's never going
to completely die out - I wonder if the same will be able to be said about
CDs?

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article ,
"David Looser" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Looser" wrote:

I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at a time when CDs
cost roughly double that of the equivalent LP. Possibly people like the
idea
of a buying a 'premium' (read more expensive) product.

That coincided with record companies no longer accepting returns of
unsold lps. Shops abandoned the medium rather take the risk.


*People* abandoned the medium because the CD was taking over - that lead to
unsold LPs. Had the LP still be selling well there wouldn't have been unsold
LPs to return.

*People* abandoned the medium because they couldn't find them in stores.
This happened quickly in the US.

Record companies could require minimum orders, so a flop title would be
a disaster for the shop if returns weren't accepted.

*People* also liked buying cassettes for about the same price as lp, so
convenience and availability were both factors.

Stephen

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote


I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at a time when CDs
cost roughly double that of the equivalent LP. Possibly people like the
idea of a buying a 'premium' (read more expensive) product.


People, having committed themselves with a player, were buying into a
radical new 'perfect music for life' product. They are not so gullible these
days and a 'breakthrough' really does have to deliver. We've seen DVD audio
and SACDs fall on their arse and HD TV will only succeed because it is
Hobson's Choice and Blu-Ray will soon be the same - what are the chances of
3D TV making it big?

My guess is that it will fail to win sufficient 'hearts and minds'....

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


Despite being a niche market, the public have accepted
the considerable rise in the cost of an LP as the
improvement in quality both in the pressing and
presentation is there for all too see/hear.

Except there was never any such improvement. Elegant folios and high
quality pressings are not innovations of the declining days of the LP.
They were available in the days when LPs were all we had.


Back in the day 'novelty' discs were plentiful but nobody (much) bought
them - they do now, even if most of them are modern fakes!



It was widely thought that an increase in price might kill off
existing sales. This has proved not to be the case.

When LP sales dropped by 99% or *more* as they have for the LP, most sane
people would say that the sales were "killed off". They were not killed
off to the point of complete and total extinction, but they were
effectively killed off.


'Killed off' but not actually *dead*, eh? :-)

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


Exactly, but not so 'easily 'doable' in the real world
unless you have the resources of a trade magazine, then
you'll have the journos to write it all up in a
completely subjective, flowery and meaningless way.

It is ironic perhaps that the most notable examples of trade magazines
publishing articles about bias controlled listening tests of audio gear
were written by outside contractors (not staff) who relied on the
resources of amateurs (The SMWTMS and TAS audio clubs) to perform the
tests whose results they published. Other than final editing and printing,
the major service that the trade magazines provided was to intervene with
audio manufacturers to provide the gear that was tested.


'Hifi' magazines are a good source of pictures and prices for those
interested; nobody with half a brain reads the guff or believes the
'measurements'.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , MiNe
109
wrote:
In article , "David Looser"
wrote:


That coincided with record companies no longer accepting returns of
unsold lps. Shops abandoned the medium rather take the risk.


*People* abandoned the medium because the CD was taking over - that
lead to unsold LPs. Had the LP still be selling well there wouldn't
have been unsold LPs to return.

*People* abandoned the medium because they couldn't find them in stores.
This happened quickly in the US.

Can't comment on the US as I've never lived there.

My recollection was that for a number of years there were more LPs in the
shops I went into than CDs. The LPs were also distinctly cheaper. And I
used to find I often had to order a CD and wait a couple of weeks. TBH The
only reason I didn't just buy what I wanted via mail from someone like
Covent Garden or Windows (no, not Bill Gates. :-) ) was a wish to put the
trade the way of a local shop.

More recently the local shop said it simply wasn't practical for them or
order indivudual CDs any more as all the wholesalers, etc, insisted on
large 'minimum order' numbers that meant they either had to buy things they
didn't want, or you had to wait for ages. They amagamated with the local
shop that sold art supplies, instruments, etc, a while later. They are now
gone entirely. A great shame. So far as I am concerned in large part they
were a victim of how the large music biz treated them.

The likes of EMI don't really care so far as I can see. Suits them OK to
have CDs flogged via the web and the CI and duck VAT. That way they just
send shiploads to one or two 'retailers' rather than supply many small
shops.

Record companies could require minimum orders, so a flop title would be
a disaster for the shop if returns weren't accepted.

Both my own experience and reports I've read written by dealers say that

1) The companies made it difficult for them to return faulty LPs and
recover the money.

2) CDs simply didn't get returned to the shop as faulty as often as an LP
did. Particularly for things like classical music rather than the more
'here today and forgotten tomorrow' types of chart pop.

3) Higher markup on CDs at the time.

So no contest so far as the shop was concerned.

I had sympathy for small music shops. The big music companies made their
life very difficult. Insisting they had to place orders for many items.
Then refusing to deal with faulty returns quickly and conveniently (from
the shop's POV). In effect, each LP returned to the shop became a 'long
term loan' from the shop to the music company who made the LP. Leaving the
shop with all the hassle.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote


I guess you don't watch British TV. There was a recent series called "Turn
Back Time" in which the TV production company took over some empty shops
in the centre of Shepton Mallet, set them up as shops from a particular
era in the past and brought in volunteer retailers to run them as shops of
that era. The first era was the 1870s, the last the 1970s (via Edwardian,
1930s, wartime and 1960s). In the 1970 era one shop was set up as a 1970s
record shop and the volunteer "owner" was required to sell recorded music
1970s style, ie on vinyl. He didn't do well, the population of Shepton
Mallet didn't make a bee-line to his door rdemanding to buy LPs, quite the
contrary. On the other hand the woman who ran a 1970s style clothes shop
did very well.



Oddly enough, as somone who watches virtually no live TV, I did see that
programme - I was called through for it. It was quite interesting to see the
efforts of the shopkeeper getting the geriatric pop group and everything,
but surely no-one *really* expected that a whole load of people would buy a
medium they amost certainly didn't have the kit to play it on?

Tbh, if anyone mentions to me they are thinking of starting out in vinyl I
tell them not to get into it. Doesn't happen these days....

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
"David Looser" wrote:

I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at
a time when CDs cost roughly double that of the
equivalent LP. Possibly people like the idea of a buying
a 'premium' (read more expensive) product.

That coincided with record companies no longer accepting
returns of unsold lps. Shops abandoned the medium rather
take the risk.

Stephen

Yet another tired old vinyl bigot induced conspiracy theory.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote


I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at a time when CDs
cost roughly double that of the equivalent LP. Possibly people like the
idea of a buying a 'premium' (read more expensive) product.


People, having committed themselves with a player, were buying into a
radical new 'perfect music for life' product. They are not so gullible
these days and a 'breakthrough' really does have to deliver.

They never were that gullible. There are no end of products that simply
failed to make it commercially. RCA nearly went bankrupt trying to launch
their "Selectavision" videodisc in 1980, the public simply didn't want it
and wouldn't buy it. Similarly with Philips Digital Compact Cassette and
Sony with the Elcaset.

CD succeeded because it really was better. Maybe it wasn't as indestructible
as the hype claimed, but a lot of people (me included) were really fed up
with the poor quality of the average LP, I'd stopped buying LPs even before
the CD was commercially available. And when the CD appeared it did not
disappoint, the quality really was what I'd been hoping it would be.

We've seen DVD audio and SACDs fall on their arse and HD TV will only
succeed because it is Hobson's Choice and Blu-Ray will soon be the same -
what are the chances of 3D TV making it big?

My guess is that it will fail to win sufficient 'hearts and minds'....


I entirely agree, whilst 3D may sell cinema seats, I really don't think that
most people want a TV picture that looks blurry unless you wear special
glasses. People generally don't sit and concentrate on watching TV, they use
it as background to other activities so having to wear these glasses will be
a killer for 3D TV IMO.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"David Looser" wrote


I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at
a time when CDs cost roughly double that of the
equivalent LP. Possibly people like the idea of a buying
a 'premium' (read more expensive) product.


People, having committed themselves with a player, were
buying into a radical new 'perfect music for life'
product.

Interestingly enough, a product that proved itself with the first few discs
purchased.

IME about one in 10 titles was poorly mastered in the early days, so there
was a finite chance of obtaining a looser in the first disc purchased.

They are not so gullible these days and a 'breakthrough' really does have
to deliver.

The only relevant thing that took gullibility was believing that CDs were
not going to become the number one pre-recorded medium, and darn quick!

We've seen DVD audio and SACDs fall on their arse

The fall was expedited by the excellent performance of the audio CD.

and HD TV will only succeed because it is Hobson's Choice

Boy, HDTV must really be *bad* in the UK.

and Blu-Ray will soon be the same

?????????????

- what are the chances of 3D TV making it big?

Of the issues you raised, the only one that is seriously in question.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote


I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at a time when CDs
cost roughly double that of the equivalent LP. Possibly people like the
idea of a buying a 'premium' (read more expensive) product.


People, having committed themselves with a player, were buying into a
radical new 'perfect music for life' product. They are not so gullible
these days and a 'breakthrough' really does have to deliver.

They never were that gullible.


Are you kidding? Chart CDs were 14 quid in the UK; 10 quid in France and 6
quid in the US. It never got any better until the Internet blew it all
apart. You don't get more gullible than that - Rip Off (or '****') Britain!


There are no end of products that simply
failed to make it commercially. RCA nearly went bankrupt trying to launch
their "Selectavision" videodisc in 1980, the public simply didn't want it
and wouldn't buy it. Similarly with Philips Digital Compact Cassette and
Sony with the Elcaset.

CD succeeded because it really was better.


It is better than LP by various standards but not from a 'sound
quality/listening experince' POV, in my book. Much better in the car for
starters...!!


Maybe it wasn't as indestructible
as the hype claimed, but a lot of people (me included) were really fed up
with the poor quality of the average LP, I'd stopped buying LPs even
before the CD was commercially available.


OK, that's where we differ - maybe my kit wasn't up to it (Cambridge Audio
P50 amp; Philips GA202 deck with Ortofon Gawd knows what; AR 4Xa speakers)
but I never had to return a disc, they were all fine - as are the ones I am
playing right now.


And when the CD appeared it did not
disappoint, the quality really was what I'd been hoping it would be.

We've seen DVD audio and SACDs fall on their arse and HD TV will only
succeed because it is Hobson's Choice and Blu-Ray will soon be the same -
what are the chances of 3D TV making it big?

My guess is that it will fail to win sufficient 'hearts and minds'....


I entirely agree, whilst 3D may sell cinema seats, I really don't think
that most people want a TV picture that looks blurry unless you wear
special glasses. People generally don't sit and concentrate on watching
TV, they use it as background to other activities so having to wear these
glasses will be a killer for 3D TV IMO.


Yes, we are in agreement there.

I have two 3D Blu-Rays he Coraline and Journey to the Centre Of The
Earth - apart from the stunning opening/title sequence of Coraline, they are
a better watch in '2D'. The overall 'cocoa' colour of the 3D versions is a
serious killer for me! Mind you that's only the two colour (anaglyph?)
stuff, not the shutter thing the TVs do.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote


OK, that's where we differ - maybe my kit wasn't up to it (Cambridge Audio
P50 amp; Philips GA202 deck with Ortofon Gawd knows what; AR 4Xa speakers)
but I never had to return a disc, they were all fine - as are the ones I
am playing right now.


Correction: the deck was a Philips GA212

http://sebastian-scherf.homepage.t-o...s_ga_212_1.jpg


Very 'chick' - it had green illuminated non-moving 'lift' buttons to set the
speed and a rocker switch to raise and lower the tonearm.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote


sneeyip


We've seen DVD audio and SACDs fall on their arse

The fall was expedited by the excellent performance of the audio CD.


I agree that for 'digital' a good CD is all I need, but there were a number
of factors that went into the early demise of the DVDA and SACDs: They were
greedily/discouragingly priced to start with; they needed an expensive
player; they didn't sound *that much* better (if at all) on 'hifi' equipment
and almost certainly wouldn't have done on 'domestic' (electrical hardware
shop) kit and the first available titles seemed to be not much more than
obscure 'samplers'. Factor in also that I asked about SACDs in a well-know
music store (can't remember its name for the life of me - HMV, Huntingdon?)
and the sales assistant didn't know what I was talking about!!



and HD TV will only succeed because it is Hobson's Choice

Boy, HDTV must really be *bad* in the UK.


No idea, but you can't buy anything but 'HD Ready' TVs in this country.
(Correct me if I'm wrong here!)



and Blu-Ray will soon be the same

?????????????


Wait and see - the remasters and releases are coming thick and fast; there's
no price premium for BluRay rentals and BD players are dropping fast in
price. I predict they will kill the ordinary DVD off if the Internet doesn't
do it first - things are moving quickly in the audiovisual/entertainment
world nowadays!

(Thank Gawd for the radio and LPs! :-)



- what are the chances of 3D TV making it big?

Of the issues you raised, the only one that is seriously in question.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

Keith G said...

Very 'chick' - it had green illuminated non-moving 'lift' buttons to set the
speed and a rocker switch to raise and lower the tonearm.

They were very cool and like most Philips kit of that time very well
made for the price. I had 2 at one stage, have just looked in my bits
box and still have one of the slide in cartridge carriers with an
original GP400 cartridge clipped to it, sans stylus of course.

They did have one design fault, if you got out of the shower with wet
hair, bent over it to put some kool chunes on and a drop of water fell
into one of the illuminated touch switches then that switch would
stubornly remain operative until either the drop evaporated or dopey
showeree finally figured out why it was stuck on 45 rpm and wielded a
tissue:-)

The Ortofon must surely have been a VMS20E.

--
Ken O'Meara
http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote


sneeyip


We've seen DVD audio and SACDs fall on their arse

The fall was expedited by the excellent performance of
the audio CD.


there were a number of factors that went into the early
demise of the DVDA and SACDs:


They were
greedily/discouragingly priced to start with;

Not that much more than CDs, if memory serves.

they needed an expensive player;

Player prices came way down to well under $200. I even own one. Still no joy
in the marketplace.

they didn't sound *that much* better
(if at all) on 'hifi' equipment

Unless they were remastered and ended up sounding better than the
predecessor CDs.

and almost certainly
wouldn't have done on 'domestic' (electrical hardware
shop) kit

There was precious little if any of that would play a SACD or DVD-A.

and the first available titles seemed to be not
much more than obscure 'samplers'.

I think there were eventually over 5,000 titles but still no joy.

Factor in also that I
asked about SACDs in a well-know music store (can't
remember its name for the life of me - HMV, Huntingdon?)
and the sales assistant didn't know what I was talking
about!!

See my former comments about relying on store staff for anything but taking
your money...

and HD TV will only succeed because it is Hobson's
Choice

Boy, HDTV must really be *bad* in the UK.

No idea, but you can't buy anything but 'HD Ready' TVs in
this country. (Correct me if I'm wrong here!)

You do have HD broadcast TV working by now, eh?

and Blu-Ray will soon be the same

?????????????

Wait and see - the remasters and releases are coming
thick and fast; there's no price premium for BluRay
rentals

Actually, Netflix is nicking me for an extra buck or so a month to get
BluRay discs.

and BD players are dropping fast in price.

Roger that! For about $130 you can get a Blu Ray player that is wonderful
for CDs, DVDs, Blu Ray, internet, and even downloads off of your PC.

I predict they will kill the ordinary DVD off if the
Internet doesn't do it first

The problem with the internet lacks the capacity for widespread HD video
downloading. Most of Netflix's downloadable catalog is SD and not their best
movies, only a tiny subset of their entire catalog. Yet, their downloads are
20% of the total US Internet traffic. To much more of that, and the whole
sand castle comes tumbling down.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


They never were that gullible.


Are you kidding? Chart CDs were 14 quid in the UK; 10 quid in France and 6
quid in the US. It never got any better until the Internet blew it all
apart. You don't get more gullible than that - Rip Off (or '****')
Britain!


Make your mind up as to what point you are making. One minute you are saying
that people (nationality not stated) *were* gullible, but aren't now. *Now*
you are saying that it's only the British who are gullible. Since at the
time most of us didn't have the option to buy from outside the UK it was no
more "gullible" to pay £12 for a CD than it was to pay the local price for
any other commodity. BTW I remember 'full price' CDs as costing between £10
and £12, not £14. But even at £12 they were still well worth the premium
over the £6 - £8 of the equivalent LP at the time. Are people being
"gullible" to stay in a London Hotel when they could stay in a hotel
elsewhere for a lot less?

CD succeeded because it really was better.


It is better than LP by various standards but not from a 'sound
quality/listening experince' POV, in my book. Much better in the car for
starters...!!

Well we'll just have to disagree on that. In my book CDs are better in many
ways but *particularly* from a "'sound quality/listening experince' POV".
It's odd, because you've written in praise of the "HD" (ie. lossless) audio
on Bluray, which I find more or less indistinguishable from good ol' Dolby
Digital, yet appear unmoved by the relatively dramatic improvement in going
from LP to CD.


Maybe it wasn't as indestructible
as the hype claimed, but a lot of people (me included) were really fed up
with the poor quality of the average LP, I'd stopped buying LPs even
before the CD was commercially available.


OK, that's where we differ - maybe my kit wasn't up to it (Cambridge Audio
P50 amp; Philips GA202 deck with Ortofon Gawd knows what; AR 4Xa speakers)
but I never had to return a disc, they were all fine - as are the ones I
am playing right now.


Well the ones I bought were far from "fine", indeed I'm not sure I've ever
come across an LP I'd describe as "fine", not by comparison to a CD that is.
Even the best have audible surface noise and harmonic distortion, many
from the 1970s had pressed-in clicks and pops and various "wooshes" and
other faults. Taking them back didn't help as the replacement would be just
as bad. CD was well worth the premium IMO.


I have two 3D Blu-Rays he Coraline and Journey to the Centre Of The
Earth - apart from the stunning opening/title sequence of Coraline, they
are a better watch in '2D'. The overall 'cocoa' colour of the 3D versions
is a serious killer for me! Mind you that's only the two colour
(anaglyph?) stuff, not the shutter thing the TVs do.


TBH I don't like 3D at all, not even in the cinema. Maybe it's something to
do with my eyesight but I find the effect tiring to watch and, at times,
quite distracting. I sincerely hope that the current 3D fad burns itself out
as quickly as all the previous 3D fads did.


David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"UnsteadyKen" wrote in message
m...
Keith G said...

Very 'chick' - it had green illuminated non-moving 'lift' buttons to set
the
speed and a rocker switch to raise and lower the tonearm.

They were very cool and like most Philips kit of that time very well
made for the price.


Yes Ken, it was - same with Grundig but both 'names' seem to have diminished
now.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...


They never were that gullible.


Are you kidding? Chart CDs were 14 quid in the UK; 10 quid in France and
6
quid in the US. It never got any better until the Internet blew it all
apart. You don't get more gullible than that - Rip Off (or '****')
Britain!


Make your mind up as to what point you are making. One minute you are
saying that people (nationality not stated) *were* gullible, but aren't
now.


Where am I saying that?


*Now*
you are saying that it's only the British who are gullible.


I'm saying the (Rip Off) Brits are gullible - I don't know about the rest. I
do know they got their CDs (and petrol) a lot cheaper than we did.


Since at the
time most of us didn't have the option to buy from outside the UK it was
no more "gullible" to pay £12 for a CD than it was to pay the local price
for any other commodity.


You had the option to say '**** it' and not buy the item at that price. It's
what I did.


BTW I remember 'full price' CDs as costing between £10
and £12, not £14. But even at £12 they were still well worth the premium
over the £6 - £8 of the equivalent LP at the time.


Maybe to you, not to me.


Are people being
"gullible" to stay in a London Hotel when they could stay in a hotel
elsewhere for a lot less?



Depends where you need to be: if you need to be in London you don't have
much choice, do you?



CD succeeded because it really was better.


It is better than LP by various standards but not from a 'sound
quality/listening experince' POV, in my book. Much better in the car for
starters...!!

Well we'll just have to disagree on that.


Yep.



In my book CDs are better in many
ways but *particularly* from a "'sound quality/listening experince' POV".
It's odd, because you've written in praise of the "HD" (ie. lossless)
audio
on Bluray, which I find more or less indistinguishable from good ol' Dolby
Digital, yet appear unmoved by the relatively dramatic improvement in
going
from LP to CD.


You need to realise that some people (includes me and my partner) don't
perceive that 'dramatic improvement' - quite the opposite. I suspect you are
one of those people who hover over the speakers and only hear the surface
noise from LPs...??


OK, that's where we differ - maybe my kit wasn't up to it (Cambridge
Audio
P50 amp; Philips GA202 deck with Ortofon Gawd knows what; AR 4Xa
speakers)
but I never had to return a disc, they were all fine - as are the ones I
am playing right now.


Well the ones I bought were far from "fine", indeed I'm not sure I've ever
come across an LP I'd describe as "fine", not by comparison to a CD that
is.
Even the best have audible surface noise and harmonic distortion, many
from the 1970s had pressed-in clicks and pops and various "wooshes" and
other faults. Taking them back didn't help as the replacement would be
just
as bad. CD was well worth the premium IMO.


That's OK, LPs weren't for you - I can live with that. They are fine for me.


TBH I don't like 3D at all, not even in the cinema. Maybe it's something
to
do with my eyesight but I find the effect tiring to watch and, at times,
quite distracting. I sincerely hope that the current 3D fad burns itself
out
as quickly as all the previous 3D fads did.


We are still in agreement on that one. 3D TVs are a lot of money I'm told
and you need a 3D player (not so expensive - say a 160 quid) - too much
outlay and hassle for Joe Snot for what little 3D material there is likely
to be.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"Keith G" wrote


OK, that's where we differ - maybe my kit wasn't up to
it (Cambridge Audio P50 amp; Philips GA202 deck with
Ortofon Gawd knows what; AR 4Xa speakers) but I never
had to return a disc, they were all fine - as are the
ones I am playing right now.


Correction: the deck was a Philips GA212

http://sebastian-scherf.homepage.t-o...s_ga_212_1.jpg


Very 'chick' - it had green illuminated non-moving 'lift'
buttons to set the speed and a rocker switch to raise and
lower the tonearm.

My recollection is that unlike the Lenco L-7x series, this was actually a
pretty good piece of kit.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Keith G" wrote


OK, that's where we differ - maybe my kit wasn't up to
it (Cambridge Audio P50 amp; Philips GA202 deck with
Ortofon Gawd knows what; AR 4Xa speakers) but I never
had to return a disc, they were all fine - as are the
ones I am playing right now.


Correction: the deck was a Philips GA212

http://sebastian-scherf.homepage.t-o...s_ga_212_1.jpg


Very 'chick' - it had green illuminated non-moving 'lift'
buttons to set the speed and a rocker switch to raise and
lower the tonearm.

My recollection is that unlike the Lenco L-7x series, this was actually a
pretty good piece of kit.


I liked it at the time. The mystery is what happenened to all that kit - I
don't still have (by some decades) and yet I don't remember how (or when) I
got rid of it!

Wish I still had it!

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote

I liked it at the time. The mystery is what happenened to all that kit - I
don't still have (by some decades) and yet I don't remember how (or when)
I got rid of it!

Wish I still had it!


It must be an age thing, I have no recollection of how I came by the Luxman
DD turntable that I currently use. It was stored in my loft for a while
before I started using it, but as to how it got there...? I can only assume
I saw it on sale somewhere at a price I couldn't resist.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message

Make your mind up as to what point you are making. One minute you are
saying that people (nationality not stated) *were* gullible, but aren't
now.


Where am I saying that?

quote
They are not so gullible these days
unquote


I'm saying the (Rip Off) Brits are gullible - I don't know about the rest.
I do know they got their CDs (and petrol) a lot cheaper than we did.

It is easy to label people who buy things that we personally regard as poor
value for money as being "gullible". To me that would be those who buy Rolex
watches, or designer clothes, or expensive branded trainers. But those
people in the main buy those things because, to them, the price is
acceptable. It's not for me to criticise them for spending their own money
in the way they see fit.

Brits didn't get the choice of whether to buy CDs or petrol at American
prices, in the case of petrol we still don't. So the fact that an item may
be available cheaper elsewhere does NOT make someone gullible for buying it
at the price that it is available for *to them*

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article ,
"Keith G" wrote:

Wait and see - the remasters and releases are coming thick and fast; there's
no price premium for BluRay rentals and BD players are dropping fast in
price. I predict they will kill the ordinary DVD off if the Internet doesn't
do it first - things are moving quickly in the audiovisual/entertainment
world nowadays!

The internet may help the BluRay: many new players have wifi enabling
streaming video from NetFlix, etc.

Stephen

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote


sneeyip


We've seen DVD audio and SACDs fall on their arse

The fall was expedited by the excellent performance of the audio CD.


I agree that for 'digital' a good CD is all I need, but there were a
number of factors that went into the early demise of the DVDA and SACDs:

Not so much "early demise" as failure to ever take off in the first place.

They were greedily/discouragingly priced to start with; they needed an
expensive player; they didn't sound *that much* better (if at all) on
'hifi' equipment and almost certainly wouldn't have done on 'domestic'
(electrical hardware shop) kit and the first available titles seemed to be
not much more than obscure 'samplers'. Factor in also that I asked about
SACDs in a well-know music store (can't remember its name for the life of
me - HMV, Huntingdon?) and the sales assistant didn't know what I was
talking about!!


I agree with that assesment. The public simply couldn't see the point of
DVD-A or SACD. CD was (and remains) more than good enough for 2-channel
domestic replay and was readily available at an acceptable price with a good
choice of material. What did DVD-A or SACD offer the public that CD didn't?
nothing that they wanted.



Wait and see - the remasters and releases are coming thick and fast;
there's no price premium for BluRay rentals and BD players are dropping
fast in price. I predict they will kill the ordinary DVD off if the
Internet doesn't do it first - things are moving quickly in the
audiovisual/entertainment world nowadays!

IMO Bluray was launched slighlty too soon, timing is important in
introducing new AV formats, do it too soon and the public are wary of yet
another new format whilst they still regard the format before as the "new"
one. Launch too late and someone else has introduced a new format of their
own and stolen the market.

Fortunately for Bluray the 'format battle' with DVD-HD held it up long
enough. By now DVD has been around long enough to no longer be "new" and VHS
has gone the way of obsolete formats.

I agree that Bluray will eventually displace DVD, but there's plenty of life
in the DVD yet. The backward compatability means that people can replace an
old DVD player with a BD one and still play their DVDs on it. This will help
get BD players out into homes, and then you can sell BDs even to those who
can't see the difference

(Thank Gawd for the radio and LPs! :-)

No, thank gawd for radio and CDs!


David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote

The shortage of people/businesses prepared to lend a 30-40K turntable

Are you serious? 30-40K for a TURNTABLE? What planet do these people live
on?

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote




You need to realise that some people (includes me and my partner) don't
perceive that 'dramatic improvement' - quite the opposite. I suspect you
are one of those people who hover over the speakers and only hear the
surface noise from LPs...??


Had you omitted "quite the opposite" I'd have had no problem with that
statement. If people say that vinyl is good enough, that they either can't
hear the difference or don't care I can understand that. So as some people
like the physical presence of an LP, the big sleeve etc. and many also enjoy
the "retro" experience of rotating turntables and all the rest of business
that goes with playing vinyl I can see why some may prefer it. I've heard
some say that it's a nostalgia thing, that records from the 50s and 60s
*should* be played as they would have been when new, that the clicks and
pops are all part of the authentic experience, well fair enough.

But you said "quite the opposite", implying that, to you, CD sounds *worse*.
Now that I cannot understand. In what way, exactly, does CD sound worse?
I've told you what is better about it: no surface noise, no impulse noise,
dramatically less distortion of the sort which leads to a strained quality
on high-level high pitched sounds such as violins or female voices. So what,
exactly, is worse about the sound quality of a CD?

You accused me of "hovering over the speakers" to hear the improvement that
CD offers. Actually the improvement is clearly audible in normal listening,
but are you not "hovering over the speakers" to hear whatever it is about
the LP that you appear to like?

The bizarre thing IMO is that some audiophools will spend a fortune on an
ultra-expensive turntable with, presumably, the intention of minimising the
distortions that are the audible signature of vinyl. Why not simply get a CD
player and be done with them altogether?

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

The shortage of people/businesses prepared to lend a 30-40K turntable

Are you serious? 30-40K for a TURNTABLE? What planet do these people live
on?


Greece:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs1aUws0Lrs


See the magnetically suspended platter at about 3:20

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote


sneeyip


We've seen DVD audio and SACDs fall on their arse

The fall was expedited by the excellent performance of the audio CD.


I agree that for 'digital' a good CD is all I need, but there were a
number of factors that went into the early demise of the DVDA and SACDs:

Not so much "early demise" as failure to ever take off in the first place.


Quite so - I don't think I ever saw any announcements or ads for either
format or, if I did, they didn't 'stick' with me!


I agree with that assesment. The public simply couldn't see the point of
DVD-A or SACD. CD was (and remains) more than good enough for 2-channel
domestic replay and was readily available at an acceptable price with a
good choice of material. What did DVD-A or SACD offer the public that CD
didn't? nothing that they wanted.


I think Joe Snot remained blissfully unaware of their existence: even the
tiny few that were on the shelves were dual format and would play in a CD
player..


IMO Bluray was launched slighlty too soon, timing is important in
introducing new AV formats, do it too soon and the public are wary of yet
another new format whilst they still regard the format before as the "new"
one. Launch too late and someone else has introduced a new format of their
own and stolen the market.


I think BluRay had enough advertising/promotion material on DVDs and TV to
absolutely ensure a decent take-up, especially when the remastering 'before
and after' clips were showed.


Fortunately for Bluray the 'format battle' with DVD-HD held it up long
enough. By now DVD has been around long enough to no longer be "new" and
VHS has gone the way of obsolete formats.


There is no doubt DVD did exactly the same thing as CD in the development of
things.



I agree that Bluray will eventually displace DVD, but there's plenty of
life in the DVD yet. The backward compatability means that people can
replace an old DVD player with a BD one and still play their DVDs on it.
This will help get BD players out into homes, and then you can sell BDs
even to those who can't see the difference


Yes, but I bet many more BDs will be rented rather than bought for a while
yet.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message


Yes, but I bet many more BDs will be rented rather than
bought for a while yet.

I think this is due to a change in how the market is working, not any
reflection on BD technical benefits.

While many DVDs look better than ever on my new 60" HD set, the slight extra
cost for BD as opposed to DVD was easy to swallow.

The ready availability of rental media ensured that in nearly 2 decades I
purchased only integer numbers of pre-recorded tapes and DVDs.

Netflix selection by web and delivery by mail or download only made my
non-purchase habits more complete.