Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message

So you went some way towards making it a properly
controlled test, but not far enough. It seems that the
panel knew that they were listening to turntables and
that everyone listened together, both very definite
no-nos in subjective testing.

Agreed. Whether the test was truely double blind is open for speculation.

Also missing - audibly perfect time synchronization of the playback.

Was the order in which the
turntables were heard varied for each cycle? was the same
turntable used twice as if it was a switch? What were the
voting arrangments? and how statistically significant
were the results?

Here's a link to a TT comparison test that did things *right*:

http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_phca.htm

The goal was comparing cartridges, but in fact entire vinyl playback systems
were compared.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

The shortage of people/businesses prepared to lend a 30-40K turntable

Are you serious? 30-40K for a TURNTABLE? What planet do these people live
on?


Yes. He's serious.

I know a good number of people, less well-heeled
who have turntables that retail at a very modest
UKP10,000.

You might also be interested to enquire about
the prices of the speakers which such people use:

Tannoy (Westminster Royal?) and B+W (Nautilus 802)

Make sure you are sitting down before you make the call:-)

Regards
Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , David Looser
wrote:

Indeed, because the mass-market transition from buying music on physical
media to downloads is well advanced. CD will, in the near future,
itself be a niche market catering mainly, I guess, to classical music
buyers.


I'm personally hoping it will be an array of *small* companies who are
enthusiasts and will happily sell you a disc or a download to use as you
choose since their real interest is in ensuring the *music* is available.

What do you mean by "use as you choose", Jim.

The industry's own expectation is that the major companies
will split up label by label, into separate companies each having
a high level of expertise in their own field. So this will be a return
to the status quo.

The downside of this is that few companies will be able to
invest longterm in artists forming a lifetime bond.
(Sir George Solti's association of more than 50 years
with Decca, some 250 recordings including 45 operas,
is one example of many that comes to mind)
Artists, will be freelance, paid by the project,
and need to hop from label to label, projhect to project

The other problem is that no company will be able to make large
longterm project investment, over say ten years. It is important
especially in classical repertoire, that young talent, singers, solo
performers, conductors, orchestral musicians, be heard in major
projects, opera, etc. Without subsidy from various EU cultural
foundations, (and Arts Council in the UK) funding for such projects
will not be viable.

I
suspect there is more chance of this with classical/jazz/etc than 'pop
music' which has largely been a way for bigger companies to extract dosh
from all and sundry.

The financial budget, artistic and technical expertise required
to bring a band to the public's notice, and turn it into a
commercial sucess, is cvonsiderable, Jim.

About one in ten new acts makes any money over
a five year period. And very often those that do, have
"internal differences" and the band breaks up before the
second album, or (even worse) just days after it's release.

For pop/rock I suspect individual bands will make
their output available as side-dish to their concerts.

A great number of bands are already doing this. One even sees
record kiosks as classical concerts. With a CD the price of a
cocktail, trade (albeit on impulse) is brisk. It is open to debate
whether that same member of the audience would take the trouble
to go to his local shop to buy the recording the next day.

Some classical concert promoters offer leather bound programme
folders, with pockets for the tickets, the programme and the CD.
For a special occasion, these make a nice keepsake.

So I'd love to see companies like Chandos and Linn music survive and
prosper.

Let's hope so, and a great many others too.

I suspect most casual pop/rock listeners would prefer to get
'free' mp3s at low rates.

These listeners make up the majority of the market.

But maybe enough of those would be interested in
a disc *if* they had an interest in better quality - or it became the
fashion item to have. :-)


Pop music is largely transitory, that quantity not quality
is what matters to most people. My neighbour's children have
every single track ever recorded by Metalica on iPod.
(They probably get this from their father who has every single
track ever recorded by Jethro Tull:-) Car players, and iPods
seem to be the players of choice.

If it comes down to "the fashion item to have" then turntables are
a much stronger contender. A whole generation has missed out
on vinyl, which, for many, holds a deep fascination.

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Examing the public record, I find a scholarly paper from Yale university
that shows a Bosendorfer 290 concert grand measuring out to to be rather
deficient in bass as compared to a Roland keyboard and a Yamaha upright
piano.


The Michail Lifits concert at the Wigmore Hall
will probably be performed on a Bosendorfer,
an instrument which is hugely expensive to rent,
transport and tune.

Why don't you telehone John Gilby and advise him
to use a Roland keyboard instead, Arny?
I am sure you could get him a good deal
from Walmart.

Kipper coming up:-)

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


I played two sides of Decca GOS 628-30
Bach: St John Passion. Choir of King's College
Cambridge/London Philharmonia, late late last night on my
EMT 948 before turning in. It's a remarkable performance
I have played this boxed set many many times in the thirty
years I have owned it -Light surface here and there, but
no ticks, plops or scratches, and certainly none of the
"rifle shots" that Jim complains of.

Effective proof that Iain's ear's have subnormal HF response, and not by a
little.

And this from the man who recorded "Domine" LOL :-)

Time to post a link again, Arny:-)
Will you? Or shall I ?

Funny how " true believers" convince themselves they have
effective proof in all manner of things, when , in truth, they
have none.

The audiogram, required by law for employment insurance
in professional music recording is far more effective proof
and plainly to the contrary, dear Arny.

I invited you to come for a visit. I will happy to
demonstrate the same LP Decca GOS 628-30
to you on the same EMT948 on which I played it.

As an amateur non-conformist church recordist,
this recording should be of great interest to you.
The choir is perhaps the finest you will ever hear,
and the acoustic of the chapel which dates from the
1450s is truly magnificient. I can show you session
photos of the chapel and the "Decca tree" mic set up.

You may even care to take part in a gentlemen's
wager as regards the clicks and pops on the disc
surface. Let's see what the "man behind the mouth"
as my colleague calls you, is really made of:-))

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , David Looser
wrote:

Indeed, because the mass-market transition from buying music on
physical media to downloads is well advanced. CD will, in the near
future, itself be a niche market catering mainly, I guess, to
classical music buyers.


I'm personally hoping it will be an array of *small* companies who are
enthusiasts and will happily sell you a disc or a download to use as
you choose since their real interest is in ensuring the *music* is
available.

What do you mean by "use as you choose", Jim.

I mean that they provide the 'music' in a form like LPCM wave or Flac with
no DRM. They provide you with whatever sample rate and bitdepth you choose.
And you are then free to use that as you choose. So might both have a
96k/24bit version to play on any computer-based system you own, or generate
DVDs to play on your own players, or CDs, or make mp3s or aacs or whatever
*you* use for your *own* listening. An end to 'now buy another version'.

Maybe even, "choose to buy the CD and it comes with either a DVD with high
rez lpcm wave files or a code to download the hi rez version whenever you
choose". On of the snags of downloading is the lack of a good booklet and
having to put a copy onto CDR/DVDR if you want something off HD to 'own'.

Looking at Linnrecords the thought I kept having was "why not given the
option to buy a CD plus a DVD with the 88k/24 or 192k/24 wave/flac version,
all in a nice CD case with the booklet?"

No DRM or 'rights management'. They just get in the way of honest users,
and don't actually stop those seriously intent on piracy.

The point is to put the paying customer into the driving seat.

The industry's own expectation is that the major companies will split up
label by label, into separate companies each having a high level of
expertise in their own field. So this will be a return to the status quo.

The downside of this is that few companies will be able to invest
longterm in artists forming a lifetime bond. (Sir George Solti's
association of more than 50 years with Decca, some 250 recordings
including 45 operas, is one example of many that comes to mind) Artists,
will be freelance, paid by the project, and need to hop from label to
label, projhect to project

The other problem is that no company will be able to make large longterm
project investment, over say ten years. It is important especially in
classical repertoire, that young talent, singers, solo performers,
conductors, orchestral musicians, be heard in major projects, opera,
etc. Without subsidy from various EU cultural foundations, (and Arts
Council in the UK) funding for such projects will not be viable.

I know that for many years some companies did this as a 'prestige' thing.
However I've noticed since that small companies like Chandos, and also
'band run' labels dedicated to specific groups of people are working.

Chandos are a good example as they have been making really excellent
recordings for many years. Naxos also are interesting because they have
done well out of choosing 'unknown' artists and kept down their costs.
Different approaches, but both have worked OK.

So I do hope/expect that a number of small concerns will go on making and
releasing recordings. Also note the declared wish of the BBC that their
'archive' should get as close as possible to 'all on line'. Think of what
that could mean in the future given all the recordings they hold of proms
and other concerts they sponsored. I was listening to their 320k aac stream
again yesterday having made some improvements to the system I'm using. Once
again I was very impressed by the sound and the performance.

BTW In this case a performance of Holmboe's 1st Symphony.

My only concern wrt the destruction of giants like EMI is that their back
catalogue doen't become unavailable.

FWIW I am also concerned about how many recordings are generally
unavailable with no clear prospect of being audible by most of us. The
obvious examples are the ones held by the UK and USA but can only be heard
if you visit the organisation's building - despite being taxpayer funded.
Thus we all pay for what only a tiny number get a chance to hear. And
almost never in a convenient situation with good equipment.

For the USA, think V-Disc as an example.

I suspect there is more chance of this with classical/jazz/etc than
'pop music' which has largely been a way for bigger companies to
extract dosh from all and sundry.

The financial budget, artistic and technical expertise required to bring
a band to the public's notice, and turn it into a commercial sucess, is
cvonsiderable, Jim.

The good news is that small companies seem to do it OK since the CDs are
appearing, etc. Plus, of course, the remit of the BBC.


Some classical concert promoters offer leather bound programme folders,
with pockets for the tickets, the programme and the CD. For a special
occasion, these make a nice keepsake.

No fancy leather folders. But when the SCO or BBCScotSO visit town they
have CDs on sale at discounted prices. People do seem to buy them.

So I'd love to see companies like Chandos and Linn music survive and
prosper.

Let's hope so, and a great many others too.

Yes.

I suspect most casual pop/rock listeners would prefer to get 'free'
mp3s at low rates.

These listeners make up the majority of the market.

That is my greater concern TBH. Music is not taught in UK schools as it was
'when I were a lad'. There has been a decline in interest in non-pop music
due to lack of exposure. And music is easily cut when the government wants
to 'save money'. However again there may be some good news here with the
development of 'Big Noise' type work prompted by the creation of the
projects in South America, etc.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message


Why don't you telephone John Gilby and advise him
to use a Roland keyboard instead, Arny?

He might not like the touch of the keyboard. He surely knows what exists and
what he wants.

I am sure you could get him a good deal
from Walmart.

Iain's ignorance of the US professional audio market demonstrated yet again.
WalMart is far from being a Roland dealer.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


Why don't you telephone John Gilby and advise him
to use a Roland keyboard instead, Arny?

He might not like the touch of the keyboard. He surely knows what exists
and what he wants.

I am sure you could get him a good deal
from Walmart.

Iain's ignorance of the US professional audio market demonstrated yet
again. WalMart is far from being a Roland dealer.



Since when has any knowledge of the 'US professional audio market' been a
requirement or even a legitimate expectation of any poster to this *UK
recreational* newsgroup?

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


Why don't you telephone John Gilby and advise him
to use a Roland keyboard instead, Arny?

He might not like the touch of the keyboard. He surely knows what exists
and what he wants.

I am sure you could get him a good deal
from Walmart.

Iain's ignorance of the US professional audio market demonstrated yet
again. WalMart is far from being a Roland dealer.



Since when has any knowledge of the 'US professional audio market' been a
requirement or even a legitimate expectation of any poster to this *UK
recreational* newsgroup?

Especially since I was winding him up:-)
Looks like I succeeded!

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , David Looser
wrote:

Indeed, because the mass-market transition from buying music on
physical media to downloads is well advanced. CD will, in the near
future, itself be a niche market catering mainly, I guess, to
classical music buyers.


I'm personally hoping it will be an array of *small* companies who are
enthusiasts and will happily sell you a disc or a download to use as
you choose since their real interest is in ensuring the *music* is
available.

What do you mean by "use as you choose", Jim.

I mean that they provide the 'music' in a form like LPCM wave or Flac with
no DRM. They provide you with whatever sample rate and bitdepth you
choose.

I agree with your comment about DRM, but wonder if the rest makes
sense commercially?

And you are then free to use that as you choose. So might both have a
96k/24bit version to play on any computer-based system you own, or
generate
DVDs to play on your own players, or CDs, or make mp3s or aacs or whatever
*you* use for your *own* listening. An end to 'now buy another version'.

Understood. But these are all separate products.

When you go to a shoe shop, do you ask for a pair of brogues in black,
size nine, and expect them to include a pair in brown, and another in
beige for the same price?


Maybe even, "choose to buy the CD and it comes with either a DVD with high
rez lpcm wave files or a code to download the hi rez version whenever you
choose". On of the snags of downloading is the lack of a good booklet and
having to put a copy onto CDR/DVDR if you want something off HD to 'own'.

It's more than a snag, it's a major disadvantage, and something that
companies producing vinyl have used to greatly enhance the PQ of their
product.. I received a review copy of a privately produced 2LP jazz
set with a thick 12" booklet with text and photos, probably worth the
price of the whole package.


Looking at Linnrecords the thought I kept having was "why not given the
option to buy a CD plus a DVD with the 88k/24 or 192k/24 wave/flac
version,
all in a nice CD case with the booklet?"

No DRM or 'rights management'. They just get in the way of honest users,
and don't actually stop those seriously intent on piracy.

Agreed:-)

The point is to put the paying customer into the driving seat.

Or let the lunatics run the asylum?

The other problem is that no company will be able to make large longterm
project investment, over say ten years. It is important especially in
classical repertoire, that young talent, singers, solo performers,
conductors, orchestral musicians, be heard in major projects, opera,
etc. Without subsidy from various EU cultural foundations, (and Arts
Council in the UK) funding for such projects will not be viable.

I know that for many years some companies did this as a 'prestige' thing.
However I've noticed since that small companies like Chandos, and also
'band run' labels dedicated to specific groups of people are working.

Yes indeed. That's encouraging, they do work but only within a limited
sphere.

Chandos are a good example as they have been making really excellent
recordings for many years. Naxos also are interesting because they have
done well out of choosing 'unknown' artists and kept down their costs.
Different approaches, but both have worked OK.

The artists are the ones who lose out. There are rarely if ever firm
contracts above the current deal, so artists must go from label to label if
the wish to keep recording. The sense of continuity that Solti had with
Decca will sadly disappear. I doubt very much, Jim, with your sense of
fairplay, you would consider a budget label artist's contract to be fair if
you
saw one.

So I do hope/expect that a number of small concerns will go on making and
releasing recordings. Also note the declared wish of the BBC that their
'archive' should get as close as possible to 'all on line'.

That's a monumental task. But as the Beeb is keen to cash in on its
resources, I am sure it will be done.

Think of what
that could mean in the future given all the recordings they hold of proms
and other concerts they sponsored.

I think of it often. The amount of material held even within the EBU is
beyond belief. Russian classical archives are probably the largest of
all.

I was listening to their 320k aac
stream
again yesterday having made some improvements to the system I'm using.
Once
again I was very impressed by the sound and the performance.

BTW In this case a performance of Holmboe's 1st Symphony.

It is difficult for a broadcast to reach the standard of a dedicated
recording.

You made an interesting choice in Vagn Holboe Jim. I find his
music fascinating and can hear the influence of Sibelius, Delius
and also Shostakovich in his work. There is hope that the
string quartet which he was writing at his death, will be
completed by one of his countrymen. It seems that copious
notes and roughs exist, and so hopefully the task of completing
the fair copy score as VH would have written it, will not be
an impossible one.

My only concern wrt the destruction of giants like EMI is that their back
catalogue doen't become unavailable.

No fear of that. The catalogue is a huge financial asset. It will be
divided up, and a host of smaller specialised labels will make careful
re-issues. Or, a holding company will retain the ownership and sign
lease deals.

FWIW I am also concerned about how many recordings are generally
unavailable with no clear prospect of being audible by most of us.

Not much you can do about that, except buy a turntable:-)

In a few days I shall have pressings of the Kopylov string quartets
of which Arny's Google told him no complete set existed:-)

Some classical concert promoters offer leather bound programme folders,
with pockets for the tickets, the programme and the CD. For a special
occasion, these make a nice keepsake.

No fancy leather folders. But when the SCO or BBCScotSO visit town they
have CDs on sale at discounted prices. People do seem to buy them.

Concert sales, even though many are impulse buys, are significant. Usually
the recordings are sold at a slightly reduced price as there is no retailer
involved. Good additional income for any orchestra,

I suspect most casual pop/rock listeners would prefer to get 'free'
mp3s at low rates.

These listeners make up the majority of the market.

That is my greater concern TBH. Music is not taught in UK schools as it
was
'when I were a lad'.

Maybe that's a good thing. I remember when I was at school
that most students used to consider music as a free period. Surely
it makes better sense, as music is not a compulsory subject, to
teach it to those who have an interest or aptitude.

There has been a decline in interest in non-pop music
due to lack of exposure.

Erm. Sorry Jim, but I think you are mistaken there.
People on UK music newsgroups write constantly
about the difficulty in getting a place in even their
local amateur classical ensemble, most of which
have waiting lists, run auditions at grade VI and
can pick and choose.

Iain