Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message

"David Looser" wrote in
message ...

So if you want to claim that modern TTs sound better
than those of 40 years ago I suggest that some evidence
would help your cause. I don't mean personal anecdotes,
but a properly conducted listening test.

Exactly, but not so 'easily 'doable' in the real world
unless you have the resources of a trade magazine, then
you'll have the journos to write it all up in a
completely subjective, flowery and meaningless way.

Our audio club did TT-related DBTs back in the 70s:

http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_phca.htm

The same basic methodology could be used to compare
turntables.
But I don't actually *know* that because I haven't
tried any really expensive turntables...

I've been to enough high end audio shows and visited
with enough well-heeled LP true believers to have
listened to some really expensive stuff.

No matter what they say, it isn't the second coming... The LPs still
sound like LPs.

Thankfully - no point in all that faff and hassle if the
result sounded like a CD/download is there?

You keep changing the subject.


Huh? I'm only responding to a remark *you* made!




I played records all afternoon today (seriously ****ty
weather) - the moment the needle went down I was
'gripped' by the sound!
:-)

Easily explainable by simple sentimentality.



Grant me the possibility that I'm not some starry-eyed *returner* to vinyl -
whenever I have done 'hifi' (there have been breaks) I have done LPs. Hence
it is not 'nostalgia' for me....

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

I played records all afternoon today (seriously ****ty weather) - the
moment the needle went down I was 'gripped' by the sound!


Morning Keith


Afternoon Iain,



What better way to spend an afternoon?


Quite so, but if only it wasn't so damn *dark* these days - today is another
one!



When I passed these across the desk, it
was always the vinyl that caught their
attention.


I was in a 'record' shop (selling mainly CDs) in Cambridge and had a very
young sales assistant tell me once 'It sounds better on vinyl!'


I think that more labels would like to be
able to issue material on both CD and vinyl
but even if the retail price of the LP is double that
of the CD, the production, pressing and printing costs
are ten times. Convincing the bean counters is
no easy task:-)


I'm sure you're right. Whenever the subject of vinyl comes up on the telly
there is usually someone saying that people like 'something they can hold in
their hand' and that downloads/MP3s significantly fail to satisfy in that
area.

Vinyl is small but it is a steady niche product these days. It's never going
to completely die out - I wonder if the same will be able to be said about
CDs?

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article ,
"David Looser" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"David Looser" wrote:

I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at a time when CDs
cost roughly double that of the equivalent LP. Possibly people like the
idea
of a buying a 'premium' (read more expensive) product.

That coincided with record companies no longer accepting returns of
unsold lps. Shops abandoned the medium rather take the risk.


*People* abandoned the medium because the CD was taking over - that lead to
unsold LPs. Had the LP still be selling well there wouldn't have been unsold
LPs to return.

*People* abandoned the medium because they couldn't find them in stores.
This happened quickly in the US.

Record companies could require minimum orders, so a flop title would be
a disaster for the shop if returns weren't accepted.

*People* also liked buying cassettes for about the same price as lp, so
convenience and availability were both factors.

Stephen

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote


I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at a time when CDs
cost roughly double that of the equivalent LP. Possibly people like the
idea of a buying a 'premium' (read more expensive) product.


People, having committed themselves with a player, were buying into a
radical new 'perfect music for life' product. They are not so gullible these
days and a 'breakthrough' really does have to deliver. We've seen DVD audio
and SACDs fall on their arse and HD TV will only succeed because it is
Hobson's Choice and Blu-Ray will soon be the same - what are the chances of
3D TV making it big?

My guess is that it will fail to win sufficient 'hearts and minds'....

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


Despite being a niche market, the public have accepted
the considerable rise in the cost of an LP as the
improvement in quality both in the pressing and
presentation is there for all too see/hear.

Except there was never any such improvement. Elegant folios and high
quality pressings are not innovations of the declining days of the LP.
They were available in the days when LPs were all we had.


Back in the day 'novelty' discs were plentiful but nobody (much) bought
them - they do now, even if most of them are modern fakes!



It was widely thought that an increase in price might kill off
existing sales. This has proved not to be the case.

When LP sales dropped by 99% or *more* as they have for the LP, most sane
people would say that the sales were "killed off". They were not killed
off to the point of complete and total extinction, but they were
effectively killed off.


'Killed off' but not actually *dead*, eh? :-)

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


Exactly, but not so 'easily 'doable' in the real world
unless you have the resources of a trade magazine, then
you'll have the journos to write it all up in a
completely subjective, flowery and meaningless way.

It is ironic perhaps that the most notable examples of trade magazines
publishing articles about bias controlled listening tests of audio gear
were written by outside contractors (not staff) who relied on the
resources of amateurs (The SMWTMS and TAS audio clubs) to perform the
tests whose results they published. Other than final editing and printing,
the major service that the trade magazines provided was to intervene with
audio manufacturers to provide the gear that was tested.


'Hifi' magazines are a good source of pictures and prices for those
interested; nobody with half a brain reads the guff or believes the
'measurements'.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , MiNe
109
wrote:
In article , "David Looser"
wrote:


That coincided with record companies no longer accepting returns of
unsold lps. Shops abandoned the medium rather take the risk.


*People* abandoned the medium because the CD was taking over - that
lead to unsold LPs. Had the LP still be selling well there wouldn't
have been unsold LPs to return.

*People* abandoned the medium because they couldn't find them in stores.
This happened quickly in the US.

Can't comment on the US as I've never lived there.

My recollection was that for a number of years there were more LPs in the
shops I went into than CDs. The LPs were also distinctly cheaper. And I
used to find I often had to order a CD and wait a couple of weeks. TBH The
only reason I didn't just buy what I wanted via mail from someone like
Covent Garden or Windows (no, not Bill Gates. :-) ) was a wish to put the
trade the way of a local shop.

More recently the local shop said it simply wasn't practical for them or
order indivudual CDs any more as all the wholesalers, etc, insisted on
large 'minimum order' numbers that meant they either had to buy things they
didn't want, or you had to wait for ages. They amagamated with the local
shop that sold art supplies, instruments, etc, a while later. They are now
gone entirely. A great shame. So far as I am concerned in large part they
were a victim of how the large music biz treated them.

The likes of EMI don't really care so far as I can see. Suits them OK to
have CDs flogged via the web and the CI and duck VAT. That way they just
send shiploads to one or two 'retailers' rather than supply many small
shops.

Record companies could require minimum orders, so a flop title would be
a disaster for the shop if returns weren't accepted.

Both my own experience and reports I've read written by dealers say that

1) The companies made it difficult for them to return faulty LPs and
recover the money.

2) CDs simply didn't get returned to the shop as faulty as often as an LP
did. Particularly for things like classical music rather than the more
'here today and forgotten tomorrow' types of chart pop.

3) Higher markup on CDs at the time.

So no contest so far as the shop was concerned.

I had sympathy for small music shops. The big music companies made their
life very difficult. Insisting they had to place orders for many items.
Then refusing to deal with faulty returns quickly and conveniently (from
the shop's POV). In effect, each LP returned to the shop became a 'long
term loan' from the shop to the music company who made the LP. Leaving the
shop with all the hassle.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote


I guess you don't watch British TV. There was a recent series called "Turn
Back Time" in which the TV production company took over some empty shops
in the centre of Shepton Mallet, set them up as shops from a particular
era in the past and brought in volunteer retailers to run them as shops of
that era. The first era was the 1870s, the last the 1970s (via Edwardian,
1930s, wartime and 1960s). In the 1970 era one shop was set up as a 1970s
record shop and the volunteer "owner" was required to sell recorded music
1970s style, ie on vinyl. He didn't do well, the population of Shepton
Mallet didn't make a bee-line to his door rdemanding to buy LPs, quite the
contrary. On the other hand the woman who ran a 1970s style clothes shop
did very well.



Oddly enough, as somone who watches virtually no live TV, I did see that
programme - I was called through for it. It was quite interesting to see the
efforts of the shopkeeper getting the geriatric pop group and everything,
but surely no-one *really* expected that a whole load of people would buy a
medium they amost certainly didn't have the kit to play it on?

Tbh, if anyone mentions to me they are thinking of starting out in vinyl I
tell them not to get into it. Doesn't happen these days....

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
"David Looser" wrote:

I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at
a time when CDs cost roughly double that of the
equivalent LP. Possibly people like the idea of a buying
a 'premium' (read more expensive) product.

That coincided with record companies no longer accepting
returns of unsold lps. Shops abandoned the medium rather
take the risk.

Stephen

Yet another tired old vinyl bigot induced conspiracy theory.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote


I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at a time when CDs
cost roughly double that of the equivalent LP. Possibly people like the
idea of a buying a 'premium' (read more expensive) product.


People, having committed themselves with a player, were buying into a
radical new 'perfect music for life' product. They are not so gullible
these days and a 'breakthrough' really does have to deliver.

They never were that gullible. There are no end of products that simply
failed to make it commercially. RCA nearly went bankrupt trying to launch
their "Selectavision" videodisc in 1980, the public simply didn't want it
and wouldn't buy it. Similarly with Philips Digital Compact Cassette and
Sony with the Elcaset.

CD succeeded because it really was better. Maybe it wasn't as indestructible
as the hype claimed, but a lot of people (me included) were really fed up
with the poor quality of the average LP, I'd stopped buying LPs even before
the CD was commercially available. And when the CD appeared it did not
disappoint, the quality really was what I'd been hoping it would be.

We've seen DVD audio and SACDs fall on their arse and HD TV will only
succeed because it is Hobson's Choice and Blu-Ray will soon be the same -
what are the chances of 3D TV making it big?

My guess is that it will fail to win sufficient 'hearts and minds'....


I entirely agree, whilst 3D may sell cinema seats, I really don't think that
most people want a TV picture that looks blurry unless you wear special
glasses. People generally don't sit and concentrate on watching TV, they use
it as background to other activities so having to wear these glasses will be
a killer for 3D TV IMO.

David.