"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...

How ever it is becoming more common to have the kitchen (and thus all
those appliances) on it's own ring, then two others for "up stairs"
and "down stairs".

When I had my kitchen re-done recently I took the opportunity to split off
the kitchen sockets as a separate ring. My main motivation was to be able to
supply it from a separate RCD as, in my experience, kitchen appliances are
the major cause of nuisance tripping.

David.

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

In message , Michael A.
Terrell writes:

Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
[]
**** off Yank. Patronising *******s aren't you?


Not as much as you Brits. You won't take anyone's word on the
subject, and you would claim the NEC is wrong, as well.


What has the Nippon Electric Company done?


About as much as Lucas.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

David Looser wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...


Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet in
the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial
circuit. As would water heating.


A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle.

Despite what some others may have mistakenly implied, cookers in the UK have
their own radial circuits, usually rated at 40A.

Who is going to move a dryer from room
to room?

OK, but might a dryer not be replaced by another one? A much easier process
(and probably safer if carried out by an untrained person) if connected via
a plug & socket.

The refrigerator or freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why
would you want them anywhere but the kitchen?

Same argument as for dryers.


What makes you think they don't? I have seen exactly ONE dryer
installed without an outlet, and it was directly under the fuse box.

Older dryer outlets & plugs were three pin, the current standard is a
four pin design, to include the safety ground.

The same goes for electric stoves, but those are usually 50A
connectors, instead of 20 or 30A.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
There is no fixed number. It depends on the floor plan of the
house. The only dedicated outlets are for refrigerators, freezers,
dryers and electric stoves.

Think I prefer our system where all of these can be used on any outlet
in the house. Although fixed heating would normally have an individual
radial circuit. As would water heating.

A kitchen electric stove can take up to 50A 240V which is more than
your fragile rings can handle.

Sorry - we normally call them cookers, so I missed it. A complete electric
cooker would normally have its own radial here too. But most here would go
for a gas hob and electric oven - some of which can be run from a 13 amp
socket.


They are a single unit here. If natural gas is availible, you can
chose either. If not, you have the chioce ov very expensive propane, or
electric stoves.


Who is going to move a dryer from room to room? The refrigerator or
freezer can be plugged in anywhere, but why would you want them
anywhere but the kitchen?

You never alter a kitchen?


Yes, three so far. You've never built a house? Or an office
building with multiple kitchens?


Sigh. Water table, salt air, and hundreds of variables that tighten
the standard NEC. Some areas banned BX cable, because it rusts. In
some areas you have to use Schedule 80 gray PVC conduit instead of
steel. There are good reasons for most exemptions, and rules in the
NEC. Some limit the number of rooms per circuit, while others limit the
maximum number of outlets per circuit. There are differences all over
Europe, which is your side of the line.

Europe is a number of different countries, which explains any differences.
Although there is some unification. But just why you'd have local codes
concerning the number of sockets in the same country escapes me. Perhaps
you'd explain?


The same reasons different European countries have different
standards. Some areas have plenty of natural gaas, and only require a
100 to 150 A service for new construction, or upgrades. Other areas
require 200 A service. The number, and location of outlets can vary,
becasue some stic to the NEC, while others insist on extras, like on
both sides of a narrow hallway, even though it is less than 10 feet.
Some materails are banned in some areas, becasue of high humdity, or
dsalt air. Others require conduit, becasue only IBEW union workers are
allowed to do ANY electrical or electronics cabling.


The first homes to get electricity usually had one outlet per room,
and one ceiling ;light with a pull chain. Two 10 A fuses, and a 15A
main on the 90-110 service. Some areas were DC, some were 25 Hz and
others were 60 Hz. Farms used lead acid batteries and a 'Wincharger' to
charge them. The house was wired for 32 volt, but used standard 110
hardware so that when the grid became available all they had to do was
replace the bulbs and appliances. Now, some areas require new service
or upgrades to be 200A 240V for the main breaker.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Don Pearce wrote:

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:38:19 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.
Yes, that's the main incoming supply to the building. The grey unit at the
bottom left is the supply company's terminating unit that inludes their
fuses. Above that is the meter, to the right of it is a neutral block, and
beyond that an isolator (looks like a three-phase + neutral one). I'm not
sure what the unit above the isolator is, but at the top of the wardrobe
are three consumer units, each, apparently, fed from a different phase.
The one on the right seems to feed just one, high-current, load.

In the US even fairly large homes and retail stores generally have just two
boxes - a meter box and a distribution panel box. 120 volt and 240 volt
circuits are distributed from there.

There are exceptions. For historical reasons, my ca. 1933 home has 2
subpanels and should have 3. It also has a safety switch in a separate box
outside by the meter because the run to the main distribution panel in the
basement is so long. This place is really gerrymandered as its needs
increased dramatically over the years.

Intermediate-size buildings such as a large factory, apartment building or
superstore have a central meter and a few large breakers in just two boxes,
and additional subpanels as needed.

Really large buildings distribute HV (e.g. 4,800 volts) inside the building
and have transformer substations in various locations. The metering is
generally still centralized.

If there are multiple paying accounts within a building there will be
multiple meters and each has its own distribution infrastructure.


Do the 120V and 240V system share the same high voltage distribution
lines? I mean is the transformation done per house, per street or per
district? It just strikes me that with 240V available the requirement
for 120V should be dwindling. It really is too low for even
distribution within a house. I have experienced lights dimming
significantly when appliances are turned on in many American homes.


Then it needed to be inspected and repaired. That is a common symptom
of an open neutral, or one that is failing.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Andy Champ wrote:

On 01/02/2012 14:10, JW wrote:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 12:40:58 +0000 Mike
wrote in Message :

In whill.co.uk, Dave
writes


Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial...

Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things, bit like the Americans
themselves :-)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ricalPanel.jpg

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

Seen in a hotel room in Scotland:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l1...erWardrobe.jpg


That would fail inspection in the US, because the wiring trough at
the top is missing its cover.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Mike Tomlinson wrote:

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

Same thing. Tends to have white outer jacket but otherwise identical.


Or yellow. or Orange. Or Red. Or Green. Or Gray. It depends on
the OEM, some use it to identify their product. I've seen all thouse
colors in use.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Don Pearce wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:40:17 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:21:16 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave,
and toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

What you're saying is radial circuits are commonly overloaded in some way?
All of those (and more) would work just fine on the one UK circuit.

Current price for 2.5mm TW&E in the UK (for final ring circuits) is about
45 gbp per 100 mtrs before tax.

Yes, 12 gauge Romex is just about equivalent to our 2.5mm twin and
earth in wire gauge. The problem of course, is that in the US it is
required to handle twice the current that we use for the same load.

About the same as if we used lighting spec cable for our sockets. Not
a great plan, I'd say.

d

Oops, I forgot. With a ring main we are effectively using it doubled
up - two runs in parallel. That means that we only load our domestic
cables a quarter as much as they do in the US. No wonder we don't
suffer from voltage sag here when we turn things on.


#12 AWG is used for 20A circuits. (Outlets) How is that 1/4?

#14 AWG is used for 15A circuits. (Lighting)

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Arny Krueger wrote:

250 feet of 10/3 romex runs about $200. I wonder why people aren't
importing wire from the UK - your prices are pretty cheap!


It's not UL approved, so insurance companies wouldn't insure
buildings where it was used. If a building inspector is honest, it will
fail inspection and on CoO will be issued. If that happens, the builder
can't transfer ownership, and has to do repairs with approve materials,
or pay off the construction loans and eat the loss.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Mortimer" wrote in message
...

Ah, is the limit on a 110V circuit only 15A?

True for common circuits wired with 14 gauge wire.

20 gauge wiring is protected for 20 amps.


#12 AWG, not 20 gauge!


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.