Don Pearce wrote:

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 16:24:45 -0000, "Mortimer" wrote:

Also it doesn't allow high-power devices such as kettles to be driven from
120V, hence the tendency for water in the US to be boiled in a pan on a
cooker hob which much be horrendously slow (I know from when I've had to do
it on a gas or electric hob when the kettle was broken).

I have one horrible memory of once being at a girlfriend's house in
New York (no, that wasn't the horrible bit). She was drying her hair.
The drier plug was hanging half out as they always do (bugger all
retention or location in a US mains plug) and it was almost glowing
red hot from the current.


So what? It was defective. A good plug in a good outlet doesn't get
hot. Since it requires calling in union workers to do repairs in 'The
City' people put up with crap that could kill them.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Mortimer wrote:

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:38:19 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.
Yes, that's the main incoming supply to the building. The grey unit at
the
bottom left is the supply company's terminating unit that inludes their
fuses. Above that is the meter, to the right of it is a neutral block,
and
beyond that an isolator (looks like a three-phase + neutral one). I'm
not
sure what the unit above the isolator is, but at the top of the wardrobe
are three consumer units, each, apparently, fed from a different phase.
The one on the right seems to feed just one, high-current, load.

In the US even fairly large homes and retail stores generally have just
two
boxes - a meter box and a distribution panel box. 120 volt and 240 volt
circuits are distributed from there.

There are exceptions. For historical reasons, my ca. 1933 home has 2
subpanels and should have 3. It also has a safety switch in a separate box
outside by the meter because the run to the main distribution panel in the
basement is so long. This place is really gerrymandered as its needs
increased dramatically over the years.

Intermediate-size buildings such as a large factory, apartment building or
superstore have a central meter and a few large breakers in just two
boxes,
and additional subpanels as needed.

Really large buildings distribute HV (e.g. 4,800 volts) inside the
building
and have transformer substations in various locations. The metering is
generally still centralized.

If there are multiple paying accounts within a building there will be
multiple meters and each has its own distribution infrastructure.


Do the 120V and 240V system share the same high voltage distribution
lines? I mean is the transformation done per house, per street or per
district? It just strikes me that with 240V available the requirement
for 120V should be dwindling. It really is too low for even
distribution within a house. I have experienced lights dimming
significantly when appliances are turned on in many American homes.

Also it doesn't allow high-power devices such as kettles to be driven from
120V, hence the tendency for water in the US to be boiled in a pan on a
cooker hob which much be horrendously slow (I know from when I've had to do
it on a gas or electric hob when the kettle was broken).


Gee. We have electric or gas water heaters in the US. They've been
around since gas or electricity was available. Solar water heaters were
popular, before gas, but they disappeared into the 'European Follies, I
& II' as raw material for the War Material Board.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:22:52 -0500, Arny Krueger wrote:

I have a 1500 watt electric pot that heats 1.7 L of water in about 3
minutes. Less water, down to about a liter (what it takes to cover the
coils) heats significantly quicker.

Cover the coils? How last centaury. B-)

Most electric kettles this side of the pond have a flat plate element
in the bottom, minimum quantity about half a mug full. We also have
"rapid boil" kettles rated at just under 3kW. Similar 1.7l (3.5 US
liquid pints, 3 UK pints) capacity though.

Just plugs into the ring, along with the microwave, toaster(*),
washing machine, tumble dryer etc, none of those have circuits of
their own. B-)
How ever it is becoming more common to have the kitchen (and thus all
those appliances) on it's own ring, then two others for "up stairs"
and "down stairs".

(*) As in bread, not sure what a "toaster oven" is.


A small, counter top electric oven that runs on a 20A 120V circuit.
They are quite common to cook small meals, or for additional capacity
for a large meal where you need multiple temperatures.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Mike Tomlinson wrote:

In article , Arny Krueger
writes

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so many
circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel room.

Yes, it'll feed the entire building. Note the wiring includes the
supplier's meter, unlike those ugly external meters used in North
America. The meter is read remotely.


As are most electronic meters in the US. They have been replacing
millions of the mechanical meters, every year, for years.


As another poster said, this is a 3-phase supply. Notice how thin the
main incomer is, yet that'll be supplying 100A per phase.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 09:40:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Type "1600 prestwick grosse" into Google Maps and you can see my house
from
several angles. Step a bit east of the default location for the best
possible view looking about north.

So many cables on those poles. What on earth are they all?

That really isn't pretty.

Agreed.

On the pole:

Two cable system local feeds plus the main lines for about a dozen streets.
Yup, two completely independent digital TVcable/internet/phone systems -
isn't competition lovely?

Analog Telephone lines for my house plus the 8 or so businesses

Large analog telephone cable for a goodly number of streets.

Electric 120/240 for my house plus the businesses.

The top 3 wires are 4800 volts 3 phase to keep the power transformers in our
back yards happy.

The pole also holds the battery box for one of the 2 cable systems. The
other one is in my back yard.

Since the picture was taken, the battery box was about doubled in size and
the wiring was cleaned up.


It sounds like they replaced the 60V 30A CVT with a UPS. We were
doing that in the early '80s, in Cincinnati.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , Arny Krueger
writes

You might be surprised to hear that in the Detroit metro area Aldi (under
the eponymous and Trade Joe brands) is probably the number 2 retailer of
groceries.

Not surprised, no. Aldi and their very similar competitor Lidl have
many stores in the UK. I think some of the food is of better quality
and cheaper than the established British supermarket chains (Tesco,
Sainsburys, Asda, Morrisons). Meat particularly is good.

I use Lidl for some things. Not fresh vegetables, though. Or meat. Dairy
products are good value as are most other non fresh things.
Their tools in general are excellent - far better than budget stuff
elsewhere. But are only ever on special offer so you need to look out for
them. Don't have an Aldi anywhere close.


There are atleast two around here. They like to build near
Wal-Marts.
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
We did not have the "cleansing" effects of a world war fought in our
country to push us along. Also, electrical distribution had a very rapid
and early introduction so we have a ton of very old work that is still
in use.

It's not binding on the rest of the world but the town I lived in in
Germany looked like it had been reworked from top to bottom *after*
WW2. We had 416 3 phase in our apartment for heating water.

AFAIK the nearest three phase distribution point here to my house here
in Grosse Pointe is about a half mile away. Our church here in town has
a number of 3 phase motors and it has its own 3 phase line and separate
pole transformer for just that phase.

I've never quite understood why so many US towns seem to have overhead
wiring for mains. It's very unsightly.


Some towns are built on so much rock that you need explosives to dig a
trench. You had to get a blasting permit to set a pole in Cincinnati.
All those poles were tagged. RIP. (Replace In Place.)

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Don Pearce wrote:

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 14:00:16 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:50:55 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l1...erWardrobe.jpg

Seems like a lot of wiring and separate little boxes to handle not so
many circuits.

I presume that it provides service for more than just one little hotel
room.

Here's something more representative:-

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...akkies/002.jpg

If everything is on a ring, why are there an odd number of breakers?


The ring returns to the same breaker. There isn't a separate one for
each end of the ring.

The breakers are 4 pole?


No, you poke both wires into the same terminal hole.


Not legal in the US but you do find were some Bozo does it, after the
inspection.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 20:42:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

No, you poke both wires into the same terminal hole.


Not legal in the US but you do find were some Bozo does it, after the
inspection.

Er - how do you do that in the US? You don't have ring mains, so you
don't have two wires.

d

In message , Arny Krueger
writes

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 15:21:16 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Several hundred dollars worth of 12 gauge Romex and accessories were
involved. Simple things like putting the garbage disposal, microwave,
and toaster oven each on their own circuits make a big difference.

Romex is roughly what we call Twin and Earth in the UK?

What you're saying is radial circuits are commonly overloaded in some way?
All of those (and more) would work just fine on the one UK circuit.

Current price for 2.5mm TW&E in the UK (for final ring circuits) is about
45 gbp per 100 mtrs before tax.

Yes, 12 gauge Romex is just about equivalent to our 2.5mm twin and
earth in wire gauge. The problem of course, is that in the US it is
required to handle twice the current that we use for the same load.

Does not seem to be true. My wire tables say 2.5 mm diameter copper is more
like 10 gauge.


It's 2.5 square mm in area I believe, not the diameter of the core.
--
Chris Morriss