It's a Russian symphony orchestra after a tour of the USA.

I once attended an abysmal concert, in Leningrad, of Tchaik 4+5+6. I was
(predictably) asleep and snoring by 6, to be waken up by a swift jab in the
ribs by my neighbour, accompanied by "If you want to sleep GO HOME, if you want
to listen to the music STAY AWAKE!"
I asked the interpreter why the music was so bad, I mean - the famous Leningrad
Philharmonic............
"You have the misfortune", he replied "to have come in the summer months when
most of the Leningrad Philharmonics are on tour. This is, as it happens, the
eleventh Leningrad Philharmonic. Russia, you see, is a big country........."

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

I prefer vinyl because I think it's *better*
and I prefer/use valves because I think they are *better*, if that's out of
order in the group just say the word and I'll haul arse....

I don't know why it is out of order to state opinions and preferences - this is
a recreational group. We can talk about cheese, clogged drains, frogs or
whatever - we run the group.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
It's a Russian symphony orchestra after a tour of the USA.

I once attended an abysmal concert, in Leningrad, of Tchaik 4+5+6. I was
(predictably) asleep and snoring by 6, to be waken up by a swift jab in
the
ribs by my neighbour, accompanied by "If you want to sleep GO HOME, if you
want
to listen to the music STAY AWAKE!"
I asked the interpreter why the music was so bad, I mean - the famous
Leningrad
Philharmonic............
"You have the misfortune", he replied "to have come in the summer months
when
most of the Leningrad Philharmonics are on tour. This is, as it happens,
the
eleventh Leningrad Philharmonic. Russia, you see, is a big
country........."


Did you notice the ticket prices? Cheap for the Ruskies, expensive for
Europeans and outrageous for Americans. My wife can speak good Russian,
I thought we would slip in for a rouble or two. But they want to see your
passport
- to go to a concert!!!


Iain

The real resurgence of valves and vinyl here in the UK may well be small in
terms of overall market share, but one thing the bashers fail to realise -
it's almost 100% real 'audiophiles' that are driving it.

Well, yes and no. I believe that a large chunk of valve sales is to the MI
sector (musical instruments), and this floats the current 'new production'
houses in China, Russia and Czechoslovakia so they can produce limited lines of
boutique valves like 2a3, 6b4g, 845 etc. beside their staple sales of 6L6,
ECC8*s. and EL34s. I don't know how the valve renaissance will pan out over
time. Yes, we've seen the introduction of a lot of new boutique valves - mesh
plate 300Bs and the like, and we've seen valuable updates of 7591, EL34s, 845s
and the like, but on the other hand some ranges like the Svetlana SV811 and
572s have died a death. I'd say the valve scene is in a healthy state, and
China is contributing well to this. Plus there's still a mountain of NOS valves
everywhere at cheap prices. Will the mountain of NOS valves last until the end
of the valve renaissance (?when digital amps take over?) - I'd guess, probably.
Enthusiasts have large stockpiles - I have over 1,000 so I'm future proof. Andy


=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

On 28 Oct 2004 12:42:36 GMT, ohawker (Andy
Evans) wrote:

I prefer vinyl because I think it's *better*
and I prefer/use valves because I think they are *better*, if that's out of
order in the group just say the word and I'll haul arse....

I don't know why it is out of order to state opinions and preferences - this is
a recreational group. We can talk about cheese, clogged drains, frogs or
whatever - we run the group.

Andy, the problem here is in the vocabulary.

If you say "I prefer vinyl because it is nicer" - then no problem. You
are simply expressing a preference, and you can use the word nicer any
way you like.

But as soon as you introduce a word like "better", then you have a
problem, because it implies some objective measure, beyond simple
preference. And you will find it hard to identify a decent set of
parameters in which vinyl and valves are better than CD and
transistors.

Now, if you are using the word better in a purely subjective way, good
for you - but it makes for problems on Usenet, because that isn't the
common usage of the term.

I believe that this is what the big fight is about here - although
between Keith and Stewart, but that has long since ceased to be the
case. No I'll correct that - it still mostly is for Stewart, but Keith
has simply turned into a snarling beast, which is a shame because
mostly he comes across as quite reasonable.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Keith G wrote:

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...

Andy Evans wrote:

This ng will never be anything but an unregulated mess unless those who
indulge
in personal insults in response to posts discussing quite ordinary hi-fi
topics
like valves and vinyl STOP the incessant put-downs, snide remarks and
sheer
nastiness directed at valve and vinyl users. We've said this time and
time
again, and YOU are one of the two worst offenders.

again, you fail to note that having valves and vinyl as *preferences* has
never been disputed.

And you seem to have failed to notice that any such stated preferences are
routinely twisted into false 'superiority claims' by about 2.5 people here
who are desperately trying to marginalise aspects of the modern audio scene
(in the UK...) that they don't like.

Well, sometimes the preferences are not admited, but rather stated as
superiority or false technical statements, which in when the tech brigade posts
the corrections.



Btw, I don't think that valves and vinyl are "ordinary hi-fi topics". More
like niche topics, actually ...

OK, make that 3.5 then.....

oh, so who is 0.5 then?





The real resurgence of valves and vinyl here in the UK may well be small in
terms of overall market share, but one thing the bashers fail to realise -
it's almost 100% real 'audiophiles' that are driving it. (I consider the DJ
scene to be mostly unchanged.) OTOH, developments in the 'mass market' audio
sector which may well/actually do account for the vast majority of sales of
'audio equipment are driven by fads, gimmickry, gadgetry and the
manipulation of the masses

(Eventually, FWIW, I suspect that 'audio' will be crunched into AV generally
and 'audio only CD' will itself become another 'niche product' as you call
it - whether some here like it or not CDs sales are falling globally and
'dedicated' CDPs are falling at the rate of 30+% on a yearly basis in the
UK.)

standalone CD players are becoming rarer among the mainstream bands due to the
surge in DVD player sales. Bargains can be picked up with the new breed of
universal disc players. Thats competition for you!


By way of explanation, if it helps you with your perspective: I greatly
prefer vinyl (played on valve equipment when it really shines) and have one
turntable. I have (I think) 7 devices here which will all play CDs and 3 of
them will (and a couple do) play over 10 hours straight of music of my own
choice (which is at least as good as the radio for 'hands-free' 'sonic
wallpaper) from a single disk.....

Yes, your vinyl and valve preference is noted. No one can dispute or rebuke
preferences, because one man's meat is another man's poison.


(Want to run the 'bigot' line again, in my case....??? ;-)


Nah, unless you try to ram your vinyl/valve preferences down everyone's throat ...

In article , Keith G
wrote:


(Eventually, FWIW, I suspect that 'audio' will be crunched into AV
generally and 'audio only CD' will itself become another 'niche
product' as you call it - whether some here like it or not CDs sales
are falling globally and 'dedicated' CDPs are falling at the rate of
30+% on a yearly basis in the UK.)

I suspect you are correct. Since the advent of DVD-V I have evolved my
audio systems and listening behaviour. Now I mostly listen to CDs on the
same system as I use for DVD's, TV, etc. (Although using a Meridian 200 to
play the CDs, not a DVD player.) During the last year I have bought a
number of DVD-V's of classical concerts, etc, and no CD-A's at all. The
only CD-A's I've got in the last year are the ones for the Barbirolli
Society website, and a couple of others which were sent to me for 'hifi'
purposes.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Keith G wrote:

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...

Andy Evans wrote:

snip

As regards engineers, musicians and audio amateurs we have another
problem.
there is a group of engineers who take it as their God given right to
direct
the flow of posts in 'engineering' terms - the most blatent is the
statement
'Audio is Engineering'.

But audio is engineering.
It involves analysis, design, build, testing and deployment. All done in a
structured way with an understanding of the fundamentals of the problem
domain and the technology being applied.



Yes and it involves a lot of tricky **** concerning small voltages and tiny
measurements, but once the 'end product' goes over the counter into the
hands of Peter Punter the engineering aspect has to give way to non-specific
generalisations like 'sounds sweeter/clearer/louder/wotever' etc. and who
will say 'I think XYZ sounds *better*.

Don't forget features, price, service, warranty, etc. I believe the whole
'sounds sweeter/clearer/louder/wotever' terminology has been used by audio
companies to push sales and distinguish themselves from the competition, aided
by the hi-fi rags.

After all, no one wants to be told their £1000 amp probably sounds just like a
£300 amp when driving speakers within both amps limits!


'One here' has the phrase 'Audio is Engineering' in his sig and has been
trying to turn this group into an 'engineer's convention' ever since I've
been here (which a *lot* longer than you).

Yes, I haven't been on this NG for too long. However, from my time on this
group, 'one here' is not trying to turn this group into an 'engineers
convention', he usually corrects technical flaws in other peoples posts.

I'm only an end user and may (or
may not) be interested in the 'engineering' aspects of playing recorded
music in my own house. As a self-professed non-technical person (which I've
stated on a number of occasions) do I not have a voice here?

Of course you have a voice here, this is UseNet after all. More important, you
are an end user of the equipment and that is reason enough to participate.

Should I not
even be here? (That one's been asked before....) Is this group open to
'non-engineers' or not? Or is it only open to 'non-engineers' who will
follow the *rules* that the 'engineers' here set down?

See my reply above.

Or is it only open to
'non-engineers' who will (somehow) avoid using 'non-engineering' terms when
expressing an opinion or preference? (Do you see where I'm going with this?)

No, it is not only open to non-engineers who use non-engineering terms when
expressing an opinion or preference. I have mentioned this before, every one has
their own opinions and preferences, of which there is no right or wrong.



I leave it up to you Mr Chan - I prefer vinyl because I think it's *better*
and I prefer/use valves because I think they are *better*, if that's out of
order in the group just say the word and I'll haul arse....


It depends on what you mean by 'better'. If 'better' means 'I like it more' than
it would be your preference and no one can argue with that.

Of course, if you define 'better' as "offering a more ruler flat frequency
response over a larger frequency range than digital and SS" than the NG techies
will surely jump on that remark ...





Btw, no need to haul arse, I enjoy reading your OT postings on this NG.

Keith G wrote:

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...

And sheesh, what has happened to this NG? I leave UseNet for a week and
come back to find 1200 posts since then, most of which are attempts to
bash SP.



It's really quite simple, me old ... (er, never mind ;-) - a few more
people have finally come out of the woodwork and are objecting to Pinky's
campaign of bigotry directed against certain *valid* aspects of the 'UK
audio scene'.....

Remember it takes 2 to tango and for every post you choose to regard as
'bashing' Pinky, he's there bashing back like a good 'un.

Of which he is entitled to (self defence?)


He loves it and
wouldn't have it other way,

of that I don't know so I can't comment.

no matter how much of a sewer it is turning this
group into. A word, incidentally, that he's quick to use to describe other
ngs which still bear the scars of his passing.

If you were refering to r.a.o, I believe that NG pretty much self combusted due
to the other posters.

(One of us had to walk away and, as no-one seemed to see Pinky's
contributions to the unending river of ****e, I thought it would have to be
me, especially as his new 'opponents' are *miles* better qualified to deal
with him than I am... ;-)



'new opponents'? The only new poster I have noticed recently has been Iain C.

Now, if you are using the word better in a purely subjective way, good
for you - but it makes for problems on Usenet, because that isn't the
common usage of the term.

You present this as an 'either or' which I think isn;t exactly the case. We
have IMHO, and using vinyl/valves as a rather uncomfortable diptych (I use
valves but rarely vinyl, others vinyl and ss):

a) I 'prefer' the sound of vinyl/valves
b) I think valves/vinyl are audibly closer to the analogue source, in
subjective terms and in terms of fidelity to known acoustical sounds
c) I think that the present state of engineering, or at least 'general purpose'
engineering (leaving out niche specialists) would claim that solid state and
digital audio has better technical measuremants

Which, of course throws us back into the lions den of 'this measures better'
and 'this sounds more like a piano to my ears'. While engineering is
indispensible to audio, just as mechanics is to driving a car, an amplifier
does nothing until you put sound through it and a car does nothing until it's
driven. Listening is as much part of the audio experience as driving is to
cars, and musicians have a case for relevance in audio just as Schumacher has a
case for relevance in motoring - whether he's handy with a spanner or not.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.