In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
instance, a pianist who plays a piano all day every day of his life
and says "this here sounds more like my piano" do we dismiss his
expertise just because we chuck it the bin labelled 'subjective'?

Yes. Unless you can honestly deny to me that the majority of people
arent surprised to hear how their own voice sounds when played back to
them.

One real test which vinyl fails - miserably - doesn't involve any
musicians with 'magic' ears 'perfect' pitch or any other such things.

Find a bloke with a nice deep fruity voice. A BBC type newsreader will be
fine.

Record to disc and CD at the same time keeping everything that's possible
in the chain the same.

Then play back through a decent system. With the real person present in
the same room, and compare with 'live'. Oh - and just to make it worst
case, use the innermost track on the LP.

Anyone who says LP is the best after this simple test is barking.

Of course, I wouldn't expect one of these 'true 100% audiophiles' to be
the least bit interested in reality. Or even noticed how poor speech on an
LP always sounds. Or care.

--
*If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Kurt Hamster wrote:
When it comes to recreational audio why should it matter whether we can
trust our hearing or not?

Then you must buy new gear purely on looks?

--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Kurt Hamster wrote:

When it comes to recreational audio why should it matter whether we can
trust our hearing or not?

Two thoughts spring to mind:

1) I happen to enjoy my system better with the bass eq'd up a bit on a
lot of stuff. NOT everything.

2) I like to be able to set the eq 'flat' as best I can on some other
recordings because I want to hear the closest I can to what was intended
by its producers.

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
Of course you hear nuances on vinyl that you won't hear on CD - or
rather you would hear on CD if you ran it through a compressor the way
it has been for the vinyl version. But what do you say to the artist
and producer who have striven to make their sound as perfect as they
can on CD? We are still here in the land of the subjective "prefer"
masquerading as the objective "better", you see.

Don,

Please do not give the impression to people that music has to be compressed
for disc cutting, This definately not the case, especially in the case of
classical
music which rarely needs any treatment whatseover, perhaps a dB or two of
peak limiting but no more.

Iain

Stewart Pinkerton commented in
uk.rec.audiocbjun0p6n7qr63tl3q6p0j016a1cqcc1vq@4a x.com:
: On 26 Oct 2004 20:51:39 GMT, ohawker (Andy
: Evans) wrote:
:
: Seems to me outrageous statements by those valve and vinyl enthusiasts are
: always the start of these slagging matches
:
: No, Dave, it goes like this:
: Post - "I'm getting really good sounds out of my valve/vinyl system"
: Response - "Yet another hopeless valve nutter who can't see that the only
: acoustically transparent device is a ss amp. Hopeless pathetic twerp"

I think AE overexaggerates entirely here, but respond to SP's remark below.

: So how about the response:
: "Glad to hear it - what are you using". Pop over to Audio Asylum and that's the
: response you get. That's because it's moderated, people are interested in each
: others projects, and the foul mouthed people from Planet Strange get their
: posts removed.
:
: Actually, it's not moderated, it's *censored*, so that all the tweakos
: and valvies can enjoy lots of mutual back-slapping without ever being
: disturbed by difficult questions like "but how do you know it *really*
: sounds different?"

I did "pop over" (as I do every so often for a look, although I've not
subscribed - and I find it appallingly hard to read because of the lack of
consistent threading, and the need to keep returning to the main page to
pick out continuations of threads that are disconnected*) to the AA
recently, and found this thread, or at least a few posts in it, quite
interesting for the reason that they *exactly* touch on this question ...

See: (and the picture in the first post alone is worth a look!)
(* I've just realised that one _can_ link to "All" of a thread ... duh!)

http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t...ubediy&m=64541
(scroll down slightly past the initial whitespace to find the image

HP's other comment later in the thread, (further down, or alone in
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/tu...ges/64565.html )
points up how this applies to audio perceptions ... if one is impatient.
I'd quote it, but I think pointing it out here should suffice, ideally.

But I do suggest reading the whole thread from the first link above!

Evidently there are a few thinkers amongst the tweakers - and some of them
*are* aware that the perceptions they get from their "illusion machines" are
*not* coincident with the original signals ... ;=})

RdM

PS: Perhaps I should clarify that, while I like valves, (and am intending to
build a valve amp - mainly because I can understand enough to, unlike SS -)
and vinyl - something atavistic in the appeal they both have, no doubt;- I
am quite sympathetic to, and indeed accept, most statements about the
technical realities of both, made here consistently by the usual few ... and
I am not at all offended by them, unlike, it appears, the other usual few!!

(In fact, it was by following similiar discussions on r.a.h.e and
rec.audio.tech, years ago, that I weaned myself from some odd beliefs:-)

ohawker (Andy Evans) averred in
:
: If you wish to pat one another on the back about preferring a flawed method of
: recording when better is readily available, don't be surprised if others
: disagree with you on a mainstream group.
:
: You're avoiding the specific issue, here, Dave. We'll leave out 'flawed method'
: and just focus on 'disagree'. I think you will admit that 'disagree' is not the
: same as 'insult'. There are plenty of people on this newsgroup who 'disagree'
: without resorting to personal insults and gutter language - Jim, Iain, Martin
: Poyser etc. etc. this ng would work if you removed the insults. I believe the
: only way to remove the insults is to remove the insulters using killfiles -
: I'll try it and see how it works. Andy

Another way would be to not take offense so easily, at *perceived* insults!

Cheers!

RdM
--
"Take great care not to disturb. Take great care not to be disturbed."
Buddhist maxim ...

"Keith G" wrote in
:
:
: "Tat Chan" wrote in message
: ...
: Andy Evans wrote:
:
: snip
[ ... ]
: I leave it up to you Mr Chan - I prefer vinyl because I think it's *better*
: and I prefer/use valves because I think they are *better*, if that's out of
: order in the group just say the word and I'll haul arse....

Wrong emphasis, IMO. Try: I prefer vinyl because I **think** it's *better*
and I prefer/use valves because I **think** they are *better*. Easy, eh?

Then look up the meaning of "euphonic distortion" ... (and weep?)
Of course, one is still entitled to one's *preference*, and its enjoyment!

It seems to me that this issue of the definition of "better" as in
personally more pleasing, vs "better" as in a closer, or more accurate,
reproduction of the original signal, is what most of the noise is about ...

Just my antipodean 2c worth ... much less at your exchange rate! :-)

RdM

ohawker (Andy Evans) said, inter alia, in
:

: (we've been through the winetaster analogy). So clearly the engineers need to
: be tolerant of the musicians and audio amateurs. This is just NOT HAPPENING. I
: see no way it is going to happen either. If you have any ideas about how
: engineers can behave more tolerantly to audio amateurs and musicians I'd very
: much like to hear them. I can tell you that audio amateurs and musicians are
: not going to climb down and bow to the engineers, because we've taken quite
: enough insults and we're not prepared to take any more.

I think one clue is in your last sentence. You perceive yourself as "taking
insults". This is VERY close to "taking offence", which is an activity that
is entirely the responsibility of the person so doing ... as you well know!

Sorry, but I feel it's a shame that so much passion and intelligence is
wasted (or should I say spent?) in this manner! ;-)

RdM

Kurt Hamster wrote:
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 18:59:30 +0100, Ian Molton used
to say...


Kurt Hamster wrote:


When it comes to recreational audio why should it matter whether we can
trust our hearing or not?

Two thoughts spring to mind:

1) I happen to enjoy my system better with the bass eq'd up a bit on a
lot of stuff. NOT everything.

2) I like to be able to set the eq 'flat' as best I can on some other
recordings because I want to hear the closest I can to what was intended
by its producers.


Neither of which answered the question.

Correct. Its a fair cop...

My point (which I was going to go on to make) was that there si no point
in having a 'flat' setting available if you dont believe it to be
accurate / able to faithfully reproduce the original signal. If I dont
trust my hearing to 'remember' I have to rely on instrumentation to
ensure the 'flatness' is real rather than imaginary.

I suppose its in the same vein that I like the walls of my house to be
as close to vertical as is reasonable.

sure an inch or so out wouldnt hurt, but it woulnt be as good.

I feel it's a shame that so much passion and intelligence is wasted (or should
I say spent?) in this manner!

Shucks, you know to please a guy, you antipodean charmer - you've made my day!

=== Andy Evans ===
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