Neil Young prefers vinyl
 

"JustMe" wrote in message
...
"Spiderant" wrote in message
news:xQUod.317587$nl.7866@pd7tw3no...
"JustMe" wrote in message
...

I agree about production in that it has a massive influence on the
sound-quality of a recording. It may well be that the older production was
deliberately hard-edged, or that today he takes advantage of superior
techniques.

His voice can sound quite sharp and tracks like Southern Man seem to have
this emphasised with distortion added to his vocal., which serves to
reinforce the song's sentiment. Don't Let it Bring You Down has none of
the
same edge, none of the distortion on his voice and employs an acoustic
rather than an electric guitar-lead arrangement. As a result his voice
sounds sweeter and the track sounds less "edgy".
Given that these are from the same album, it seems pretty clear that these
are deliberate production choices and that the hard edge in this case was
quite deliberate.

I don't hold with the idea that vinyl is "warm". Vinyl can sound bright,
dry, sharp etc. For me the difference is one of "projection". The sound to
my ears is more "out of the box" - it delivers greater dimension and
presence and it involves me more in the music, compared with CD which
seems
flatter and lacks the same involvement.

Why that should be and what it is that causes these perceptions, I don't
know but I am not the only one and, as long as that remains the case, I
shall chose vinyl over CD.

I keep my old turntable because I have records that aren't available on CD
("Time Fades Away", Jascha Heifetz playing Beethoven's Kreutzer, etc.). I'd
like to think that once the CDs are available, I'll give my records and
turntable away to the Salvation Army. But the other day I got the urge to
listen to Kraftwerk's "Radio Activity" and got totally sucked into the
music. This seems to happen a lot more than when I listen to CDs. It feels
to me that the music coming off of vinyl has more presence, even though I'm
convinced that CDs offer greater detail with a lot less noise. Although I
hate to admit it (I've invested a lot of money in CDs), I just find that I'm
just getting off on the music coming from my records a more often than the
music from my CDs. When I'm playing records, I just want to turn up the
volume. When I'm playing CDs, it seems like I'm trying too hard to enjoy
the music.

As an example, I have two versions of Glen Gould playing Bach's Goldberg
Variations. The first few times I played the vinyl version, I kept turning
it down because I was freaked out by a strange voice I kept hearing. I
thought that there was someone else in the apartment with me. It turned out
to be Glen Gould humming along with his playing. When I listen to the CD
version of the same recording, I can hear his humming, but it doesn't seem
separate from the music in the same way. The details are there, but the
sense of presence is missing. Similarly, when playing Yes's "Close to the
Edge," there's a part when Rick Wakeman begins a terrific organ/synh solo
and, if you listen carefully, you can hear someone in the background
prompting him on: "Yeah. Oh yeah." It's on the "remastered" CD as well,
but just doesn't sound separate from the music. And I get the urge to turn
up the record, whereas I get the urge to turn down the CD.

It is actually very disheartening. I'm going to pick up Neil Young's
Greatest Hits with the bonus DVD and try and do some A/B comparisons to see
if the DVD version is, as Neil suggests, better. But will I sense his
presence as much as on my vinyl versions (of the same songs), I somehow
don't think so.

Keep it lit,

Roland Goetz.

Neil Young prefers vinyl
 

In article qmcpd.325023$%k.291216@pd7tw2no, Spiderant wrote:

"JustMe" wrote in message
...

Why that should be and what it is that causes these perceptions, I don't
know but I am not the only one and, as long as that remains the case, I
shall chose vinyl over CD.

As an example, I have two versions of Glen Gould playing Bach's Goldberg
Variations. The first few times I played the vinyl version, I kept turning
it down because I was freaked out by a strange voice I kept hearing. I
thought that there was someone else in the apartment with me. It turned out
to be Glen Gould humming along with his playing. When I listen to the CD
version of the same recording, I can hear his humming, but it doesn't seem
separate from the music in the same way. The details are there, but the
sense of presence is missing. ...

A very interesting example. I assume this is Gould's 1981 "digital"
recording [1]. A stunning performance [2].

However, you have to be careful about just what's on the CDs and the
vinyl. There was a digital recording and an analogue recording made at
the same time as a backup in case the very early digital recording was
not good enough.

The first CDs (and *I assume* the vinyl release - can you verify this)
were made from the digital master. I have a fully digital CD.

Recently Sony have released CDs ("A State of Wonder") where the 1981
performance is re-mastered from the analogue back-up recording. I have
one of these as well.

The sound of Gould's humming is very different between the two CDs.

On my "digital" CD I find Gould's humming very disturbing. To me it
sounds so real but so disconnected from the music that I keep thinking
there's someone else in the house - precisely like your experience of
the vinyl.

On my "analogue" CD the humming is just as obvious but it "integrates"
much better with the music and is clearly coming from the performance
soundstage. It doesn't disturb me like the "digital" CD.

Which is better? The hi-fi enthusiasts at "Stereophile" (on the web)
seem to like the "analogue" CD and claim it has better resolution.
I don't hear this in the same way.

However, from my experience with the two CDs, maybe the CD you have is
the "analogue" version and the vinyl is the "digital" version - you may
possibly be comparing apples with oranges in this case.

[1] The 1981 is the recording where Gould's humming is most pronounced.

[2] The Gramophone's reviewers agree but the Penguin Guide's reviewers
unaccountably mark it down for Gould's inconsistent observance of
the repeats. They perfer recordings like Hewitt's which is burnished
perfection as a performance but not musically as satisfying (to me,
anyway).

--
John Phillips

Neil Young prefers vinyl
 

"Spiderant" wrote


I keep my old turntable because I have records that aren't available on CD
("Time Fades Away", Jascha Heifetz playing Beethoven's Kreutzer, etc.).
I'd like to think that once the CDs are available, I'll give my records
and turntable away to the Salvation Army. But the other day I got the
urge to listen to Kraftwerk's "Radio Activity" and got totally sucked into
the music. This seems to happen a lot more than when I listen to CDs. It
feels to me that the music coming off of vinyl has more presence, even
though I'm convinced that CDs offer greater detail with a lot less noise.
Although I hate to admit it (I've invested a lot of money in CDs), I just
find that I'm just getting off on the music coming from my records a more
often than the music from my CDs. When I'm playing records, I just want
to turn up the volume. When I'm playing CDs, it seems like I'm trying too
hard to enjoy the music.



Well put - says it all in a nutshell!! Forget all the bull**** about
'accuracy', just go with want you want to hear 'more of' and don't worry so
much about what you want to hear 'less of'. Audio reproduction is about
fulfilling emotional needs, not creating straight lines on bits of paper
when it gets to the 'end user' stage....



As an example, I have two versions of Glen Gould playing Bach's Goldberg
Variations. The first few times I played the vinyl version, I kept
turning it down because I was freaked out by a strange voice I kept
hearing. I thought that there was someone else in the apartment with me.
It turned out to be Glen Gould humming along with his playing. When I
listen to the CD version of the same recording, I can hear his humming,
but it doesn't seem separate from the music in the same way. The details
are there, but the sense of presence is missing. Similarly, when playing
Yes's "Close to the Edge," there's a part when Rick Wakeman begins a
terrific organ/synh solo and, if you listen carefully, you can hear
someone in the background prompting him on: "Yeah. Oh yeah." It's on the
"remastered" CD as well, but just doesn't sound separate from the music.
And I get the urge to turn up the record, whereas I get the urge to turn
down the CD.


Again, you are describing very well that which keeps 'vinylists' plugging
away with a difficult and expensive format over the 'quick, cheap and easy'
modern substitutes....

(No contest in my book.... ;-)



It is actually very disheartening. I'm going to pick up Neil Young's
Greatest Hits with the bonus DVD and try and do some A/B comparisons to
see if the DVD version is, as Neil suggests, better. But will I sense his
presence as much as on my vinyl versions (of the same songs), I somehow
don't think so.


Go with 'Option C' (my lifetime philosophy), which equals 'Options A + B'
where A is vinyl and B is CD/DVD or whatever (or vice versa) - IOW, aim for
the best of both worlds. Ignore ludicrous suggestions here that the formats
are mutually exclusive, even if you do have a strong preference for either
one.....

(I've finally got my CDs juiced up with EL34 amps and they are sounding
quite good - for CDs..... ;-)

Neil Young prefers vinyl
 

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Spiderant" wrote


I keep my old turntable because I have records that aren't available
on CD ("Time Fades Away", Jascha Heifetz playing Beethoven's
Kreutzer, etc.). I'd like to think that once the CDs are available,

Must admit I'm surprised that something like the Heifetz hasn't been
available on CD-A...

I'll give my records and turntable away to the Salvation Army. But
the other day I got the urge to listen to Kraftwerk's "Radio
Activity" and got totally sucked into the music. This seems to
happen a lot more than when I listen to CDs. It feels to me that the
music coming off of vinyl has more presence, even though I'm
convinced that CDs offer greater detail with a lot less noise.
Although I hate to admit it (I've invested a lot of money in CDs), I
just find that I'm just getting off on the music coming from my
records a more often than the music from my CDs. When I'm playing
records, I just want to turn up the volume. When I'm playing CDs, it
seems like I'm trying too hard to enjoy the music.



Well put - says it all in a nutshell!! Forget all the bull**** about
'accuracy', just go with want you want to hear 'more of' and don't worry
so much about what you want to hear 'less of'. Audio reproduction is
about fulfilling emotional needs, not creating straight lines on bits
of paper when it gets to the 'end user' stage....

I'd agree in general terms. However my personal experience is that I slowly
ceased bothering to listen to LPs very as my CD-A collection grew. The
results on CD-A generally sound excellent to me when playing performances/
recordings that suit my taste.



As an example, I have two versions of Glen Gould playing Bach's
Goldberg Variations. The first few times I played the vinyl version,
I kept turning it down because I was freaked out by a strange voice I
kept hearing. I thought that there was someone else in the apartment
with me. It turned out to be Glen Gould humming along with his
playing. When I listen to the CD version of the same recording, I
can hear his humming, but it doesn't seem separate from the music in
the same way. The details are there, but the sense of presence is
missing. Similarly, when playing Yes's "Close to the Edge," there's
a part when Rick Wakeman begins a terrific organ/synh solo and, if
you listen carefully, you can hear someone in the background
prompting him on: "Yeah. Oh yeah." It's on the "remastered" CD as
well, but just doesn't sound separate from the music. And I get the
urge to turn up the record, whereas I get the urge to turn down the
CD.

My experience is that things like this may be affected by various factors.
Distortion and noise levels, levels of crosstalk, frequency response, etc.
Varies on a case-by-case basis, and judgements depend upon taste and choice
of equipment, etc. My experience/judgement is that CD-A simply scores on
being more consistently enjoyable with less fuss. TBH I now probably listen
to less than one LP per year. Too busy enjoying music via CD-As (and, now
DVD-V's... :-) )

Again, you are describing very well that which keeps 'vinylists'
plugging away with a difficult and expensive format over the 'quick,
cheap and easy' modern substitutes....

(No contest in my book.... ;-)

Nor in mine. Seems pointless to make it a 'contest'. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Neil Young prefers vinyl
 

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:49:41 -0000, "JustMe" wrote:

I think everyone here would agree that the concept behind "Straight-line" is
to deliver the music as the artist intended, unsullied and uncoloured - an
accurate reflection of the artist's work.

Just reading an interview with Neil Young (HiFi Choice, January 2005), in
which he states,

"The analogue records always sounded better than anything else to me. But I
compared the new vinyl versions, which are taken from a first generation
analogue master copy, and the best just got better. It's a really good
feeling."

To be fair and put this in context, he also speaks well of DVD-Audio, but
it's clear that NY is one artist who sees vinyl as the source which is
closest to a "true replica".


I happen to think Neil Young is part of the trinity of the three great
white men of popular music still alive - Bob, Van and Neil.

Neil is not talking about vinyl being a hifi source. In fact I don't
believe Neil is interested in HiFi as discussed by wonks here and
elsewhere.

Neil has always been interested in a certain "feel" and spontaneity to
his music. A certain sound is part of that. In his opinion vinyl can
be part of that sound. Don't forget we are talking about a guy here
who likes a wall of noise. We are also talking of a guy who when
mixing down is known to place a stack of speakers on the wall of a dam
on his farm and sit out in the middle of the lake and listen.

As much as I worship Neil I wouldn't take his advice on HiFi.

Lou Reed on the other hand can [and does for hours] talk HiFi.
...
F X Holden

Neil Young prefers vinyl
 

"Francis Xavier Holden" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 21:49:41 -0000, "JustMe" wrote:

I think everyone here would agree that the concept behind "Straight-line"
is
to deliver the music as the artist intended, unsullied and uncoloured -
an
accurate reflection of the artist's work.

Just reading an interview with Neil Young (HiFi Choice, January 2005), in
which he states,

"The analogue records always sounded better than anything else to me. But
I
compared the new vinyl versions, which are taken from a first generation
analogue master copy, and the best just got better. It's a really good
feeling."

To be fair and put this in context, he also speaks well of DVD-Audio, but
it's clear that NY is one artist who sees vinyl as the source which is
closest to a "true replica".


I happen to think Neil Young is part of the trinity of the three great
white men of popular music still alive - Bob, Van and Neil.

Only three?

Not that I have any problem with your choices, but what elevates them above
the 100s of other pop musicians from the last 50 years? Why not David Bowie,
Paul McCartney or Tom Waits (off the top of my head), for instance?

One day we'll get over this devisive obsession of specifying "white" and
"black" :o/

Neil Young prefers vinyl
 

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:45:33 -0000, "JustMe" wrote:


"Francis Xavier Holden" wrote in message
.. .

I happen to think Neil Young is part of the trinity of the three great
white men of popular music still alive - Bob, Van and Neil.

Only three?

Actually, only two once you remove Neil Young..... :-)

Not that I have any problem with your choices, but what elevates them above
the 100s of other pop musicians from the last 50 years? Why not David Bowie,
Paul McCartney or Tom Waits (off the top of my head), for instance?

One day we'll get over this devisive obsession of specifying "white" and
"black" :o/

Interesting that it's seldom mentioned that Elvis got his first
recording contracts on the basis of being a white kid with a black
voice!

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Neil Young prefers vinyl
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:45:33 -0000, "JustMe" wrote:

Interesting that it's seldom mentioned that Elvis got his first
recording contracts on the basis of being a white kid with a black
voice!

The same was said about Dusty Springfield, and also Kiki Dee the
first white vocalist to record on Tamla Motown.

Iain

Neil Young prefers vinyl
 

"JustMe" wrote in message ...
I think everyone here would agree that the concept behind "Straight-line" is
to deliver the music as the artist intended, unsullied and uncoloured - an
accurate reflection of the artist's work.

Just reading an interview with Neil Young (HiFi Choice, January 2005), in
which he states,

"The analogue records always sounded better than anything else to me. But I
compared the new vinyl versions, which are taken from a first generation
analogue master copy, and the best just got better. It's a really good
feeling."

To be fair and put this in context, he also speaks well of DVD-Audio, but
it's clear that NY is one artist who sees vinyl as the source which is
closest to a "true replica".


But you are hardly likely to see an article that says CD is better
than vinyl and all this audio nonesense, is just that.... Are you?

These types of mags only publish stuff that goes with there current
way of thinking.

I have never repeat NEVER seen a review or article that say.... Sounds
the same as the last one..... or similar words

When in my long years, that actually is the response I think when I
change something 9 times out of 10.
I just bother with them anymore.

Neil Young prefers vinyl
 

"John" wrote in message
om...

But you are hardly likely to see an article that says CD is better
than vinyl and all this audio nonesense, is just that.... Are you?

Er, stating the bleeding obvious perhaps (fan those flames).

Roy.