Digital Bach sounds better on Vinyl than CD?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Phillips wrote:
I see the source is the same for your CD and vinyl.

This is most unlikely. The treatment applied between the master tape and
LP or CD will be different. So a direct comparison of commercial
products is fairly pointless.

--
*I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't care.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I was just surprised that, disregarding the surface noises, the record would
sound clearer than the CD--to my ears, anyways. As mentioned, the same
thing happened with Neil Young's "On the Beach." What surprised--and maybe
disappointed--me most was that, with all the technological advancements
since the early 1980's, in these examples the engineers have not improved
upon the sound of the original records, at least not for my budget setup and
ageing ears.

That being said, I also listened to a couple of other CDs over the weekend
(Mozart's Sonatas for Piano and Violin, Leonhardt and Kuijken, Seon SBK
62953, 1997, and Bebo & Cigala Lagrimas Negras, Calle54, 82876-55910-2,
2003) which were both beautifully recorded. In fact, while listening to
them, I was easily able to locate the piano and either violin or voice, and
the tones were not smeared but distinct and natural-sounding. Even though
the violin used in the Mozart was Baroque violin and wasn't as smooth as a
modern instrument, not once did I find it grating or annoying.

In other words, I must agree with you that, unless both mediums are produced
from identical masters, with transferable controls, etc., it is pointless
and I will no longer bother.

Thanks for the input.

Roland Goetz.

Campfire Classics
 

"John Phillips" wrote in message
...
In article sj4qd.369029$%k.133110@pd7tw2no, Spiderant wrote:

I'm sorry I distressed you - that wasn't intended.

I am about to go into being the vice-chair of a large meeting. With the
prep. tonight and the meeting over the next few days I will not find the
time to read the group or all of your article carefully for several days.

I see the source is the same for your CD and vinyl. You should note
that although I reported the "same" experience with the CD as you had
with the vinyl, this may, of course not be the case in practice as I
have not heard the vinyl. I was relying on comparing your description
with my experience which may not be exactly the same.

Anyway, in spite of my curiosity in a scientific sense I am still in
favour of trusting my own ears with respect to what I enjoy; I hope
you do so too and will not in practice be too distressed by my questions.

More comment later after my meeting ...

John Phillips

Hello John,

It wasn't you who distressed me, but my own findings after reading your
post, so please don't be concerned. I think I went through a bit of a
relapse over the weekend when I discovered, to my ears anyways, that the
Bach and Neil Young records sounded more open and natural than their CD
counterparts. However, as Dave Plowman pointed out, the comparisons are
pointless because there is no way to guarantee that the re-mastering
processes were similar between mediums.

My original discovery did prompt me to head down to our local Salvation Army
where they are selling hundreds of LPs for half a dollar apiece. I bought
five of them. One of them ("Gypsy Violins") fell apart in my hand while I
was trying to clean it. Two of them skipped on crucial passages (Toscanini
conduction Bethoven's 9th and Mendelssohn's Fingal's Cave Overature, etc.)
and the other two crackled and popped so terribly that the first thing my
wife said when she walked into the living room was, "Ahhh, Campfire
Classics." I suddenly remembered why I have given up in vinyl all those
years ago. I then listened to a couple of CDs:
Mozart's Sonatas for Piano and Violin(Leonhardt and Kuijken, Seon SBK 62953,
1997) and Bebo & Cigala Lagrimas Negras (Calle54, 82876-55910-2, 2003)
which are both wonderfully recorded. And although the sleet was falling
ouside, I had not desire to light our fireplace.

I won't give away my "On The Beach" just yet, but if I have the choice of
buying a CD or a vinyl record of the same piece of music, unless I am
throughly convinced that the vinyl version has been mastered better, I'll
lean towards the CD. And whenever I can get my brain out of the way, I'll
take your advice and trust my ears.

Keep it lit,

Roland Goetz.

Digital Bach sounds better on Vinyl than CD?
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article sj4qd.369029$%k.133110@pd7tw2no, Spiderant
wrote:

Snip

Yes, "digital is digital", but this is a bit of a catch-phrase as it does
not tell you how the "digital" is being employed. There are a number of
points that may be relevant:

e.g.s include:

1) Your LP replay system may have a very different frequency response to
your CD system. The cartridge may not have a flat response, there may be a
noticable arm-cartidge LF resonance, etc. The RIAA curve/loading may not
be
giving a flat response, etc.

2) Despite coming from the same 'original' digital recording, the signals
may have been processed in different ways before being recorded onto LP or
CD-A.

Maybe my hearing is shot. It certainly can't be my ancient budget
Technics SL-Qd3 turntable with a 20 year old needle.

Why not? Please see (1) above. For all I know, the departures from flat
response with LP replay are compensating for other departures elsewhere in
your system and giving a result you prefer.

snip

In part see (2) above w.r.t. your comments on "Neil closer to the center".
Also note that the level of crosstalk on LP replay systems is often of the
order of 20-30dB (This corresponds to a relative sound pressure level of
only about 10:1 or 15:1 emerging from the speakers.) This crosstalk may
also contain a higher proportion of distortion than on the 'speaking'
channel.

snip

Well, what you *could* do is get hold of a CD recorder, record a couple of
LPs onto CD-RW, then load the results into a computer along with the 'same
recordings' from CD-A and do various statistical comparisons. I suspect
you
would find various differences. Having done this, you could consider if
you
wished to modify your system in the light of what you find.

Slainte,

Jim


Hi Jim,

Thanks for your patient explanation. As I mentioned to Dave Plowman and
John Philips, I now know that whereas I was assuming that all things are
equal, in fact most things are very far from equal. I had a temporary
relapse and purchased five used LPs. Those LPs that didn't skip, crackled
so loudly that it was hard to concentrate on the music. While listening to
Richter playing a Beethoven sonata, at one point I found myself nodding in
rhythm to this persistent tick probably originating from a scratch in the
record. After a couple of hours of this experimenting, I tossed the records
into the trash, threw on some beautifully recorded CDs (listed in the
replies to Mr. Plowman and Mr. Philips) and remembered why I had given up on
vinyl years ago.

Thanks again for your informative and clearly presented replies.

Keep it lit,

Roland Goetz.

Digital Bach sounds better on Vinyl than CD?
 

In article b_Sqd.385025$%k.294610@pd7tw2no, Spiderant
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

[big snip]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your patient explanation. As I mentioned to Dave Plowman and
John Philips, I now know that whereas I was assuming that all things
are equal, in fact most things are very far from equal. I had a
temporary relapse and purchased five used LPs. Those LPs that didn't
skip, crackled so loudly that it was hard to concentrate on the music.
While listening to Richter playing a Beethoven sonata, at one point I
found myself nodding in rhythm to this persistent tick probably
originating from a scratch in the record. After a couple of hours of
this experimenting, I tossed the records into the trash, threw on some
beautifully recorded CDs (listed in the replies to Mr. Plowman and Mr.
Philips) and remembered why I had given up on vinyl years ago.

What you write above is pretty to similar to my own experience which has
lead me over the years to virtually cease bothering with LPs. Yes, some of
the LPs I have sound excellent. Others do not, and my experience is that
the medium is cursed with problems like those you mention. This, in turn
drove me to 'cleaning rituals' before playing an LP, and often listening
with a sense that at any moment a new 'rifle shot' would turn up and upset
my ability to relax and enjoy the music.

During the 1970's well over half the new LPs I bought I promptly returned
top the shop for a replacement due to faults. This deterred me from buying
LPs as I often could not face having to listen to copies and return them
until I got one I was prepared to accept.

With CD-A I am not sure what my return rate is, but I'd estimate it is the
order or a percent or less. So I just buy the disc and enjoy the music.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Digital Bach sounds better on Vinyl than CD?
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article b_Sqd.385025$%k.294610@pd7tw2no, Spiderant
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

[big snip]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your patient explanation. As I mentioned to Dave Plowman and
John Philips, I now know that whereas I was assuming that all things
are equal, in fact most things are very far from equal. I had a
temporary relapse and purchased five used LPs. Those LPs that didn't
skip, crackled so loudly that it was hard to concentrate on the music.
While listening to Richter playing a Beethoven sonata, at one point I
found myself nodding in rhythm to this persistent tick probably
originating from a scratch in the record. After a couple of hours of
this experimenting, I tossed the records into the trash, threw on some
beautifully recorded CDs (listed in the replies to Mr. Plowman and Mr.
Philips) and remembered why I had given up on vinyl years ago.

What you write above is pretty to similar to my own experience which has
lead me over the years to virtually cease bothering with LPs. Yes, some of
the LPs I have sound excellent. Others do not, and my experience is that
the medium is cursed with problems like those you mention. This, in turn
drove me to 'cleaning rituals' before playing an LP, and often listening
with a sense that at any moment a new 'rifle shot' would turn up and upset
my ability to relax and enjoy the music.

During the 1970's well over half the new LPs I bought I promptly returned
top the shop for a replacement due to faults. This deterred me from buying
LPs as I often could not face having to listen to copies and return them
until I got one I was prepared to accept.

With CD-A I am not sure what my return rate is, but I'd estimate it is the
order or a percent or less. So I just buy the disc and enjoy the music.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Seems a bit wasteful junking one media for another. Over the years my
collection has become scattered over LPs, CDs, Cassette, open reel and DAT
so it really depends on what music I wish to listen to and what media it
happens to be on. All of my replay devices give musical satisfaction whilst
being aware of their individual technical shortcomings. The other day I
heard Flagstad's Liebestod from Tristran & Isolde once again on a bog
standard car radio and the ol' goosebumps returned. Sure I enjoy
reproduction close to the live event like everyone else but I'm not dumping
any of my music collection just for that.
Many of my lp's are not easily available on other media and I'm not too
worried as a good mechanical record cleaner can achieve wonders. I also
enjoy listening to CDs, I was playing the soundtrack to 'Bilitis'
(remember?) on my Nak cassette player and a guest listener asked which CD I
was playing? (even though tape hiss was apparent) - just shows... :-)

Mike

Digital Bach sounds better on Vinyl than CD?
 

In article , Mike Gilmour
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

[snip]

What you write above is pretty to similar to my own experience which
has lead me over the years to virtually cease bothering with LPs.

[snip]

Seems a bit wasteful junking one media for another.

The side of me that dislikes waste agrees with you. For that reason I still
have my LPs and my LP replay system. It is just that I virtually never play
them any more for the reasons I outlined. TBH though, I guess I am keeping
them for "just in case" and nostalgic reasons. With most of the recordings
which I particularly like I long ago bought a CD-A despite having kept the
LP. Again, for the reasons I outlined.

I would hope that at such time as I wish to dispose of the LPs, someone
will want to give them a good home. However when I asked the only local
person who has been keep on LP he was not really interested any more.

BTW On Monday I asked my Electronics class how many had LPs and LP
systems and three hands went up. This is rather more than in recent years
when the number has tended to be zero or one.

They all have CD-A's and players, and just one had a valve amp - but he
explained he was a guitarist, and it was for his guitar. For his audio
system he uses SS equipment.

The results obviously have no real statistical significance, but I find it
interesting to ask my class(es) each semester to see what answers I get to
such questions.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Digital Bach sounds better on Vinyl than CD?
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Mike Gilmour
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

[snip]

What you write above is pretty to similar to my own experience which
has lead me over the years to virtually cease bothering with LPs.

[snip]

Seems a bit wasteful junking one media for another.

The side of me that dislikes waste agrees with you. For that reason I
still
have my LPs and my LP replay system. It is just that I virtually never
play
them any more for the reasons I outlined. TBH though, I guess I am keeping
them for "just in case" and nostalgic reasons.


There are quite a number of LPs in my collection that are hoarded because of
either nostalgic reasons like yourself or just that I've not had a clear out
for some time of the more unlistenable ones. Some I have both on CD & LP'
so I enjoy listening to either for the reasons I stated earlier.


[snip]

BTW On Monday I asked my Electronics class how many had LPs and LP
systems and three hands went up. This is rather more than in recent years
when the number has tended to be zero or one.


Could be disco type 12" LP's I suppose. What age range are you teaching?
If its youngsters then I wouldn't expect many hands, some of the older ones
are born again vinylists but a vanishingly small percentage of the
population I'd guess.

I've known a couple of retired EE's to play around with valve circuits, ones
in audio and another, the last time I heard he was messing around building
an 'A' scan radar using his OS and I think a magnetron out of a microwave
cooker (nuts?) :-)



They all have CD-A's and players, and just one had a valve amp - but he
explained he was a guitarist, and it was for his guitar. For his audio
system he uses SS equipment.


Did you ask him why he had a valve amp for his guitar instead of ss?



The results obviously have no real statistical significance, but I find it
interesting to ask my class(es) each semester to see what answers I get to
such questions.


Yes but you never know, it may indicate a trend one day



Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Digital Bach sounds better on Vinyl than CD?
 

In article , Mike Gilmour
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


BTW On Monday I asked my Electronics class how many had LPs and LP
systems and three hands went up. This is rather more than in recent
years when the number has tended to be zero or one.


Could be disco type 12" LP's I suppose.

I asked if they were into 'dance' or 'disco' or 'dj' type music, and they
all said, "no", but I didn't go on to find out what they *were* interested
in. If I get a chance (and remember!) I'll ask during another lecture.


What age range are you teaching?

This group is "Junior Honours" which translates to being about 20 years
old.

I've known a couple of retired EE's to play around with valve circuits,
ones in audio and another, the last time I heard he was messing around
building an 'A' scan radar using his OS and I think a magnetron out of
a microwave cooker (nuts?) :-)

Probably also illegal! 8-]


They all have CD-A's and players, and just one had a valve amp - but
he explained he was a guitarist, and it was for his guitar. For his
audio system he uses SS equipment.


Did you ask him why he had a valve amp for his guitar instead of ss?

He said he liked the sound it gave, but again, I didn't really ask beyond
that.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Digital Bach sounds better on Vinyl than CD?
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


They all have CD-A's and players, and just one had a valve amp - but
he explained he was a guitarist, and it was for his guitar. For his
audio system he uses SS equipment.


Did you ask him why he had a valve amp for his guitar instead of ss?

He said he liked the sound it gave, but again, I didn't really ask beyond
that.



Wouldn't be much point - says it all really, doesn't it? ;-)

Digital Bach sounds better on Vinyl than CD?
 

Mike Gilmour wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


BTW On Monday I asked my Electronics class how many had LPs and LP
systems and three hands went up. This is rather more than in recent years
when the number has tended to be zero or one.


Could be disco type 12" LP's I suppose. What age range are you teaching?
If its youngsters then I wouldn't expect many hands, some of the older ones
are born again vinylists but a vanishingly small percentage of the
population I'd guess.

the only person I know of who has vinyl is a DJ ... vinyl's dead among
today's youth



They all have CD-A's and players, and just one had a valve amp - but he
explained he was a guitarist, and it was for his guitar. For his audio
system he uses SS equipment.

Did you ask him why he had a valve amp for his guitar instead of ss?



Surely you jest? For musical production, a guitar valve amp sounds
better than SS (probably due to the way it distorts when overdriven)

OT: Saw PJ Harvey last night, man she rocked and her band was good! On
stage was pretty much the holy trinity of guitar valve amps ...

Marshall
Orange
Vox