....pause due to official sulk on RAT, hence removal from xpost...
Keith G wrote
I would rather the question be whether similarly priced Chinese
amps are better than mine. Answer is, not in the UK AFAIK.
You don't know because you haven't heard one. I don't know because
I haven't heard one of yours.
I know cyanide is poison, but I have never tasted it.
Backup?? ;-)
Solemn promise. But on this issue Patrick is correct to say that
component guarantees must be available from suppliers, either
explicitly or by reputation. I would never put myself in the
position of passing on unknown risk to end users. Chinese components
would be out of contention unless sold by a reputable UK supplier.
Huh? Who's talking about 'bespoke' - you buy these off the
shelf....
Yes, but I don't have a shelf. At the kind of prices I suggested, no
off-the-shelf manufacturer can compete with bespoke. Or for that
matter with DIY, which will get you the best possible deal...as long
as you don't go through the dreary, expensive, "start with something
rubbish" routine that I see advocated by some.
It is not very significant. I have just one pair of ears that I
like to use to listen to music, rather than fault-finding, which
corrupts the listening experience.
Oh yes. If one or two people here (ukra) relied on their ears or
even bought a pair of speakers and actually *listened* to a bit of
kit instead of quoting specs (they can't measure them - they never
seen or heard them most of the time) we'd hear a lot less about
'accuracy' and 'distortion' than we do....
I wouldn't know. All this is like some crazy dream to me...I came
from RAT, er, I think. I would guess the people of which you speak
wouldn't change. Is Stewart there? Or Arny? We know we can hear
distortion, so why should we subject ourselves to it willy-nilly,
unnecessarily?
OTOH, I contend that a good amp can be identified by the size of
its transformers in relation to its power output, assuming the
iron is of good quality.
One thing I think needs to be mentioned on my webpage (I only just
found out when I checked just now) is that the '18 kg' quoted for
the JA Audio amp on the eBay auction (cut and pasted to my
webpage) looks *very* like 13 kg on the bathroom scales I've
recently borrowed (to weigh a parcel). I will check it with a
spring balance setup later, but if it is only 13 kg that's a very
naughty bit of BS!! - A lot of people use 'trannie iron' and
weight/size ratio as something to go on! (Meaningless in the long
run I suppose.....)
No, the meaning doesn't fade.
Otherwise, I still say the little bugger is so surprisingly heavy
it feels stuck down when you come to lift it up
One of the dangers of decent valve amps. I can't lift my power
supply for fear of aggravating a damaged tendon from last time I
lifted it.
Most amps I see, including those in your link,
don't impress in that respect. I would want to know whether that
20Hz -1dB is at full power, for instance, and how much distortion
there is under those conditions. I'd want to know why the top end
is just 30kHz. Listening would not be the easiest or most
reliable way of finding out.
You really aren't getting the point are you?- Tese amps cost
NOWT!! If they only switched on and warmed up it would be
reasonable enough comparedwith Western prices. The fact that sound
comes out of them is a bonus (via the speakers, for the pedants),
but the biggest bonus of all is that sound *fine* - they exibit
all the qualities I look for in 'SE triodes'!!
There is no point in going through all the subjective/objective
stuff with me. I have experimented enough to know that there is some
correlation between what I hear via my very non-exotic loudspeakers,
and the actual performance of the amplifiers driving them.
Many valve amps are reputed to have a beguiling, "euphonic" kind of
sound. I believe much of that depends on your speakers, and the rest
is a matter of taste. My speakers are not naturally tuneful, so they
need to be bullied. This is true of the majority of mainstream
speakers. I value precision and "air". I also believe that many
listeners find "euphonic" becomes less beguiling as time passes, and
they attune to possible attendant shortcomings.
Shortcomings of poor output transformers are likely to be: low
frequency distortion, multiplied by the attendant attenuation of
fundamental bass frequencies below the supported bandwidth;
intermodulation distortion arising from that low frequency harmonic
distortion; attenuation of high frequencies; gross phase distortion
at high and low frequencies; possible saturation at low frequencies
and high volume, with resulting calamitous distortion across the
spectrum.
The musical scenarios I suggested are a few of the kinds of
situations where I believe I can hear those kinds of faults.
Now, the interesting bit, they haven't put me off wanting a *top
quality* 300B SET - they made me want it even more! Which is why I
say they are a Good THing - they are getting more people through
the door and, as I have said many times now, if these people are
'similarly hooked' they *could* become future customers of yours!!
Crikey. Never thought of that.
FFS wake up to that point - you and Pat banging on about how bad
these amps are when you have *never* heard them is a little
ridiculous (to say the least) and is dripping with sour grapes!!
You do yourself no favours - try this for a change: "I'm sure they
are excellent VFM and will give you a good introduction, when you
are ready I will build you summat blinding!"
I haven't said they are crap. Patrick has. I have said I don't like
the look of them, which is fair enough since look at them is all I
can do.
Sour grapes? Me? Why? I offered to make you a great amp out of the
goodness of my heart. No skin off my nose if you don't want me to.
Don't want to make a 300B amp anyway, so there. And I would need to
borrow your speakers, and maybe your room too. You would be much
better off making one yourself.
Fancy KT88 PP? A much more likely candidate for most ordinary
domestic situations.
Your suggested sales strategy would work only up to a point, and
only for a while.
interrupts typing to take delivery of 4 pcs NOS Mullard CV4024!!
:-)))
(Never fails to get me a bit excited, getting valves - stoopid
innit?? :-)
Not at all, if you are replacing Chinese "equivalents":-)
... Makes getting *any* stainlesss a bonus dunnit??
I can only tolerate its appearance if it is yellowish rather than
blue in hue. It is also a poor conductor. Not much going for it IMO
I like lacquered verdigris copper, brass,
and black hardwood because they age without looking smutty.
Jamaicans are always impressed.
Takes a lot to impress Jamaicans! ;-)
But they can be suckers for their national colours ;-)
If you put two slices of 'bird bread' (cheap white sliced) in one
side, the toaster flips them out onto the worktop! :-)
Exactly. My dream was to put the toaster on the breakfast table, to
avoid visits to the cooker or the worktop. Bird bread is known in
the baking industry as the "standard" loaf because its weight and
nutritional value was at one time a statutory requirement. It is a
national institution, but there appears to be no toaster that
accommodates it.
Here's a shot of my breakfast to give you an idea:
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Toast.JPG
LOL!
Note the 'fullrange' approach - from *untouched* to *charred* on
the one side!
Yup. Trouble is that the darker it gets, the quicker it toasts, and
the more it curls, the greater the curling forces. It's a bit like
driving speakers with a high impedance source such as a SET with no
feedback. All the colours are emphasised. I must say yours is an
extreme example, and I hesitate to suggest what kind of bread might
suit it. I would suggest bun...Jamaican spiced loaf...but with your
ejector you might just get a shower of crumbs.
(Takes real knowhow to make a toaster that clever!! ;-)
Need a pair of lasers, obviously. Perhaps a scanner/printer could be
modified to read and write simultaneously. You could even put your,
ahem, "Clover", on the exit roller.
These amps are no less 'fixable' than most and at the price they
are almost 'disposable'!!
I see...what were you saying about attractive sales patter?
Between VW and Audi, or Toyota and Lexus, rather than Kia or
Daewoo, perhaps. Performance, reliability, and clean style. Art
extra. No poshness. For those without the money for a decent amp,
I generally suggest SS is a better low-budget option. This is
unlikely to change.
Incredible - that's gonna *herd* people into your shop innit?
Shop? What do you take me for sir? True value finds its own trustee.
Asitappens, I advise people to think long and hard about valves -
I say they are not for everybody.
I think a decent valve amp has the advantage in terms of musical
performance, but most are let down badly by inconvenience. None of
the bad sonic traits of poor valve amps are necessary, but the size,
weight and heat output are naturally problematic.
Unreliability is definitely not necessary these days but is common
nonetheless. Maintenance requirements can be eliminated in
principle, but development cost counts against automation and,
arguably, punters want dials and meters to play with. To my mind
that alone excludes us from the mainstream.
The best toast comes from under the grill, but it's a dangerous
occupation - them grills don't switch themselves off!!
Quite. I daren't grill anything of high calorific value for fear of
yet another kitchen meltdown. I threw out the chip pan years ago.
Let's get one thing straight - I make no claims for these amps
other that I think they are good (means nothing) and I consider
them to be loopy VFM. The amp you can afford sounds a lot better
than any number that you can't afford, in your own home, in my
book. My point with these amps is that they open the door for a
lot of people to get 'into valves' who might otherwise be put
off by high prices.
Which buggers up the market for decent stuff. The only advantage
of a valve amp is quality as far as I care.
Why should it? I say they are good enough to get people hooked.
Then come your turn if you want it. People chasing 4 figures of
money into 'names' like Roksan/Cyrus/Arcam etc. aren't ever going
to be any use to you.
More use than ppl looking for cheapness. Anyway, I'm gonna be a
guru...wait 'til you see the Arcam "Iveson Signature" range :-)
Does a 400 UKP SET offer a
better listening experience than the best available SS of similar
power and price? Personally, I find that difficult to believe.
OK, trust me then - the answer is YES!! Both the Chinese 300B SETs
have what I call 'good triode qualities' - my yardstick/benchmark
is the 2A3 Loftin White SET (that *I* built) which sound excellent
to me but, more importantly, appears to sound excellent to
many/most 'audio vistors' here!!
Very few people would have the right kind of speakers IMO. But the
SET has never been my thing, so I can't argue much.
FWIW, a number of visitors (including a couple here) put my 2A3
SET down as my *best* amp - I don't give a rat's, I like them
all....
How much do you want for those speakers?
OK. If you ever find yourself coming down the A1 to (or past)
Huntingdon gimme a shout.
Certainly. I'll bring my amps if I can get help lifting the power
supply.
What's the bass like at volume into
ordinary mainstream speakers?
Interesting question - I've never tried them (the 300Bs) on
anything but my own homebrew speakers. I'll drag the B&W DM2As
round to them some time soon.
I seriously think the speaker issue is the undoing of your entire
plot, I'm afraid. Good speakers for SETs are not cheap, and why
would anyone buy a cheap amp for expensive speakers? They could make
their own speaks, but then they may just as well make their own amps
too. You are likely to end up just pandering to a passing fashion.
How well does the piano cope with the
tympani? Or light cymbals with saxophone? Is Mahler muddled?
Forget all that **** - they sound superb, the clarity is there,
the 'tone' is there and you/I can listen to them all day long and
still regeret having to switch them off in the wee smalls...
For me this would not be a successful sales pitch. I am an
optimiser, and don't have time to listen to everything. I need
comparable, objective evidence so I can eliminate the chaff.
I've got plenty of Zappa (LP and CD) and what I've heard of it on
the Chinese amps is excellent. I think I played a bit for Ray a
few nights ago....???
Apostrophe is useful because it starts with the sound of open
tundra, which is difficult to get right, and also has a long bass
exploration by Jack Bruce, which is tedious when muddled. Also one
of Franks most spectacular works.
You wanna buy shares in a Far Eastern organisation that's going to
take off, buy into their banking industry if you can....
Continuing economic growth without a regressive revolution will be
tricky. I wouldn't risk my paltry wealth falling into the hands of
either communists or warlords. I wish them every success, but can't
afford to bet on it.
cheers, Ian
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
Linear Mode
