The shite wot is writ here...
 

Keith G wrote:

OK, it's early days - the Oktava valve mic is only (yes, I know...)
179 from this place:

http://www.kmraudio.com/catalogue/pr...roducts_id/781

Is that another Russian one? I couldn't comment, other than maybe look for
something similar, but with 'piano' in the spiel somewhere?


But I'm totally strapped for 'toy spending' atm!! :-(

Tell me about it. I got this a month ago...

http://lab.melodolic.com/MR2/MR2-NearsideWithRoad.jpg

I have one or two plans for it (after a service and cam belt change). There
will be no audiophonic splurges for quite some time, I suspect. Not that I
give a ****, you understand... ;-)


One of my Behringer bits came from Blue Aran - it was zero hassle
'click buttons and stuff shows up' internet shopping. Turned up
within a couple of days.

That's what you want!! :-)

That's why I like eBay - don't have to keep entering payment and delivery
details: win auction, pay now, stuff arrives. It's like automatic
washer-dryers: insert clothes and powder, press button, walk away. :-)


--
Wally
www.wally.myby.co.uk
Things are always clearer in the cold, post-upload light.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

In article ,
APR wrote:
Should those who cannot make use of the full sound spectrum from a
speaker because of their age still only buy speakers that supposedly
meet the highest standards of frequency response when they may not get
any benefit themselves?

There's a great deal more to a speaker driver than simple frequency
response. 'Full range' drivers are likely to have a poor directivity
pattern, transient response and distortion due to cone break up, etc. The
only valid reason for them is the efficiency is likely higher - which is
totally irrelevant since watts are cheap these days.

In other words, slight HF loss which is normal with age doesn't mean
you'll not get any benefit from a full range speaker system.

--
*When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

OK, it's early days - the Oktava valve mic is only (yes, I know...)
179 from this place:

http://www.kmraudio.com/catalogue/pr...roducts_id/781

Is that another Russian one? I couldn't comment, other than maybe look for
something similar, but with 'piano' in the spiel somewhere?


But I'm totally strapped for 'toy spending' atm!! :-(

Tell me about it. I got this a month ago...

http://lab.melodolic.com/MR2/MR2-NearsideWithRoad.jpg

I have one or two plans for it (after a service and cam belt change).
There
will be no audiophonic splurges for quite some time, I suspect. Not that I
give a ****, you understand... ;-)


We got one of those parked out the back:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/MisterToo.JPG


It's Swim's - she's had it from Day 1 and won't part with it!

Utterly reliable, will show you 145 on the clock, goes lethal (front end
lifts/goes light) at 110. If you ever have to take it into a garage for
problems around the door handle area (window controls, central locking &c.)
tell them there's a 'screw' in it somewhere - it's the only Toyota model
with one at that location and they'll bust it trying to pull it out as all
the others only 'click' in..!!

Enjoy! ;-)



One of my Behringer bits came from Blue Aran - it was zero hassle
'click buttons and stuff shows up' internet shopping. Turned up
within a couple of days.

That's what you want!! :-)

That's why I like eBay - don't have to keep entering payment and delivery
details: win auction, pay now, stuff arrives. It's like automatic
washer-dryers: insert clothes and powder, press button, walk away. :-)


And later on, the piper pay.....?? ;-)

(No-one here knows the song or the *singer* of that line, do they....!!??)


OK, a clue - the preceding line is:

Dosie doe, swing and sway....

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"APR" wrote


Hi Don, I am in my 50's and find I cannot hear a hell of a lot over
10-12k these days. Therefore I could find the top end of the setup to be
as good as anything in the market place. While these speakers *may* be
deficient in the top end it won't necessarily exclude them from the
purchase list based upon me undertaking listening tests. Should those who
cannot make use of the full sound spectrum from a speaker because of their
age still only buy speakers that supposedly meet the highest standards of
frequency response when they may not get any benefit themselves? When we
have products predominantly for our enjoyment only, should we be concerned
what others may say or should we believe what we hear?


The thing that matters here is not the 'measurements' but the perceptions -
I don't notice any lack of treble, the drivers in my speakers are all rated
to 20K at the top end (minimum - one of the drivers is rated at 30K) and the
bass will vary with the cabinets. There is no big 'pistonic' effect (air
shifting) with FR units but low notes are perfectly fine and (despite the
clips) there is no 'one note' bass.

Where they score bigtime (and here I remind everyone I still have Tannoys
and Ruarks here and have tried a vast number of speakers in the past) is the
*clarity* and cohesion - I have quite literally heard detail I had never
heard before on countless occasions now.

The other bonus is the efficiency of some/most (but not all) of these
speakers - they leap into life leap into life like no other and are lighting
fast with incredible attack. All other speakers sound blurry and sluggish
once you have got used to them.



Keith's perceptions of his equipment are 100 valid for himself and maybe
so for many others who would like equipment that produces an enjoyable
sound but have the same age related hearing deterioration as I have
myself. Keith's perceptions of his own equipment may be the same
perceptions that I would arrive at if I were to hear it.


My door is still open to anyone who wants to hear them - there's no
obligation whatsoever to like them!!


After all, for us who replay music the end requirement is enjoyment of it.
For all those who make/play, mix and master, etc (all those professionals
in the chain) , the goal should encompass the technical issues that result
in a quality product, one of them being frequency response, with the
actual goal being to make the music as enjoyable as possible to the widest
range of people so that they want to hear it and re-hear it.

Very nicely put!

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
APR wrote:
Should those who cannot make use of the full sound spectrum from a
speaker because of their age still only buy speakers that supposedly
meet the highest standards of frequency response when they may not get
any benefit themselves?

There's a great deal more to a speaker driver than simple frequency
response. 'Full range' drivers are likely to have a poor directivity
pattern, transient response and distortion due to cone break up, etc. The
only valid reason for them is the efficiency is likely higher - which is
totally irrelevant since watts are cheap these days.


Can't agree with much of that - none of my FR units are rated at less than
20K at the top end...

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
But I'm open to suggestions, Plowie - the ideal mic plugs straight into
the computer I suppose, but summat like this does have a certain appeal:

http://www.oktava-online.com/mkl2500.htm

Would that be suitable for piano recordings?? :-)

I read as far as 'rich enough in third harmonic distortion to brighten and
add warmth' before bursting out laughing. The frequency response added
somewhat to the joke, as did the price.

Mics, of course, often don't have as flat a frequency response as you'd
get with even a modestly specced power amp as they tend to be chosen for
particular tasks.

However, you seem to be keen on a valve mic so I'll leave any advice to
others. I was glad to see the end of them.


Nevertheless, I would still be interested in your recommendations.

The valve mic idea is *me* - I don't have to worry too much about *fidelity*
as well you know, I seek only the most pleasant sound I can get and if it
makes the piano recording sound particularly good it would be a bonus. But
if you have a better idea (for less money, presumably) I'd be interested to
hear it...??

The shite wot is writ here...
 

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 08:56:57 +1000, "APR"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

Well, you haven't helped your case any here, Keith. These clips both
bear out the idea that top and bottom octaves are missing. There is
nothing significant below 60Hz, and they resemble the side of a cliff
above about 10kHz. Whether that is to do with the speaker, source
material or mic is tricky to say, but we work with what we have.


Hi Don, I am in my 50's and find I cannot hear a hell of a lot over 10-12k
these days. Therefore I could find the top end of the setup to be as good as
anything in the market place. While these speakers *may* be deficient in
the top end it won't necessarily exclude them from the purchase list based
upon me undertaking listening tests. Should those who cannot make use of the
full sound spectrum from a speaker because of their age still only buy
speakers that supposedly meet the highest standards of frequency response
when they may not get any benefit themselves? When we have products
predominantly for our enjoyment only, should we be concerned what others may
say or should we believe what we hear?

Keith's perceptions of his equipment are 100 valid for himself and maybe so
for many others who would like equipment that produces an enjoyable sound
but have the same age related hearing deterioration as I have myself.
Keith's perceptions of his own equipment may be the same perceptions that I
would arrive at if I were to hear it.

After all, for us who replay music the end requirement is enjoyment of it.
For all those who make/play, mix and master, etc (all those professionals in
the chain) , the goal should encompass the technical issues that result in a
quality product, one of them being frequency response, with the actual goal
being to make the music as enjoyable as possible to the widest range of
people so that they want to hear it and re-hear it.


Hi APR. I've never questioned Keith's perceptions, and of course he is
welcome to them. The issue under examination here was whether full
range drivers reproduce the top and bottom octaves fully - the
contention is that they on't, and Keith's postings bore out that
contention. Since they were posted Dave Plowman has pointed out that
the mic Keith was using has serious deficiencies in these areas
itself. That is where we are currently - waiting for the next chapter.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The shite wot is writ here...
 

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 22:51:08 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 21:22:00 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

Judge for yourselves - here are two 'identical' clips (end of one
track,
beginning of another) of extremely complex/crowded music recorded OPEN
MIC with only a peewee little lapel mic (all I got) with digital/SS
everything except the power amp on the EX3 clip, which is 300B SET
valve. No editing whatsoever, other than a Fade In and Out at the ends
to lessen the shock!


Without even listening, Keith, do yourself a favour and get a half
decent
mic for this sort of test.


If its of any use Keith, I can lend you a Behringer ECM8000 and home
made
pre if you wanted to play further. I don't need it until I get a couple
of
inductors wound.


Thanks Nick, if I lived round the corner I'd be delighted to take you up
on
the kind offer, but I guess I gotta get summat sorted out - not for
recording speakers as such (although that is good fun) but there's the
piano
recordings to be done some time in the near(ish) future!


The Behringer would be a good choice. It is part of the armoury of
most recordists because it is just so flat and faultless. Other mics
have "deliberate" limps and bumps that are used to accentuate various
sonic characteristics. The only real failing of the Behringer is that
it is a bit noisy because of the small diaphragm. That only matters on
very quiet sources though. Of course the price doesn't hurt too much
either.

Those other mics you are discussing with Dave aren't suitable for
plugging straight into a PC - they need a pre-amp. If you want to go
that route, Behringer is your friend again. You can get a UB802 mixer
for about £40. I bought one thinking I might use it once a month, but
I find it constantly handy.


This is all new territory for me, but very interesting. I don't have much
need of a mic other than piano recordings which won't be done for a while
yet but I would like to get summat sorted out and (surprise, surprise) I
wouldn't hate it if it had valves in it!!

Otherwise, what does this look like:

http://www.bluearan.co.uk/menu/index.php?id=BEHMIC200


No, go for the UB802, not that - what you are looking at is an effects
box; maybe fun for a few minutes, but ultimately unsatisfying.

and which of these (if any):

http://www.bluearan.co.uk/menu/index...ew=Microphones

???


Any of those (apart from the couple at the top) would probably do. Buy
two of course - you need to be able to record stereo.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The shite wot is writ here...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The thing that matters here is not the 'measurements' but the
perceptions - I don't notice any lack of treble, the drivers in my
speakers are all rated to 20K at the top end (minimum - one of the
drivers is rated at 30K)

As you've found out with your mic what a maker claims and the reality are
not always the same thing.

--
*Where do forest rangers go to "get away from it all?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The shite wot is writ here...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The thing that matters here is not the 'measurements' but the
perceptions - I don't notice any lack of treble, the drivers in my
speakers are all rated to 20K at the top end (minimum - one of the
drivers is rated at 30K)

As you've found out with your mic what a maker claims and the reality are
not always the same thing.



No, I found that out with Jap bike speedos about 40 years ago....

;-)


(Since when I have never really taken much notice of
claims/readings/measurements unless I could verify them for myself - please
see my 17,328 'pinch of salt' posts here.....)