"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , tony sayer


Personally, in a studio environment I would be *very* concerned about
their fragility.

Decca had a pair of ESL (63?) the studio versions with black grilles,
and handles on the side, that were presented to us by Peter Walker I
used them for spoken-word recordings for the Argo label, including the
London theatre cast recording of Pygmalion with Diana Rigg.

But I certainly wouldn't have used them on a project where one might PFL
a bass drum:-)

The 63s and their children might survive the over driving. Depends on the
sheer amount of abuse, and the determination with which it is applied.
:-)

I recall breaking out in a sweat hearing the 63s straining at a big-band
in full flight (Ted Heath, or Mike Westbrook, can't remember) And
that certainly could not be described as abuse. One has to be able to
reproduce the recording at the same level as the band played it in
the studio:-)

There was another consideration. As this pair of speakers
had been presented to Decca by PW himself, none of us
wanted the unenviable task of knocking on the door of the
technical director and tell him they had been damaged.

Iain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Play it on a Tannoy Westminster, or a B+W
Nautilus 802D As the player said "Now you're cooking".

Well yes. All those cabinet resonances make it sound more like a bass
guitar should...

So they meet the expectations. That's the object of the excercise.

As usual, you miss the point. An electric guitar isn't designed to be
listened to from an electrical pickup which just reacts to the strings.
They're made to be listened to via a amp/loudspeaker, which will add to
the sound produced by the pickup. And if your monitoring adds that
colouration to the DI output it will also add it to all the other sources.

The experiment is to show the true sound of a Rickenbacker
5 string fretless bass - not a lead guitar. So, it is not at all
unrerasonable at least for analysis to take the output direct
from the pickup. Often on jazz recordings no amp or mic
is actually used (as I am sure you know, Dave:-)

Iain

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Colouration is certainly the biggest problem with 'horns' after their
size - some colouration is easy to absorb and totally forget/ignore; some
isn't; some 'horns' are more 'coloured' than others. Whatever - all in
all, it's a small price to pay for an overall 'best sound' if, say, male
voices sound a bit quacky when you almost *never* hear a male voice
speaking on your system!

Lowthers and also those old Altecs that were ubiquitious in the 70s
give a valve trombone sound to die for:-)

Iain

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote


I agree. I still think there is no one loudspeaker fror all aplications


I've isolated this phrase to say I've been saying the *same thing* here
for years and is why I have always tended to have as many as three pairs
of speakers on the go (at different times), in the same room!

Having what is often described as 'catholic tastes' (Bjork/Bach), there's
plenty of stuff I like to play loud (occasionally) that I wouldn't want
played on my Lowthers!!



There is no "holy grail" of loudspeakers. You pick the
one you think will give you the most accurate information
for the project in hand. People involved in professional
recording know this, and switch happily from B+W to JBL
to Tannoy project to project Ofen the client has a preference
also:-)

Iain

In article , Iain Churches
scribeth thus

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , tony sayer


Personally, in a studio environment I would be *very* concerned about
their fragility.

Decca had a pair of ESL (63?) the studio versions with black grilles,
and handles on the side, that were presented to us by Peter Walker I
used them for spoken-word recordings for the Argo label, including the
London theatre cast recording of Pygmalion with Diana Rigg.

But I certainly wouldn't have used them on a project where one might PFL
a bass drum:-)

The 63s and their children might survive the over driving. Depends on the
sheer amount of abuse, and the determination with which it is applied.
:-)

I recall breaking out in a sweat hearing the 63s straining at a big-band
in full flight (Ted Heath, or Mike Westbrook, can't remember) And
that certainly could not be described as abuse. One has to be able to
reproduce the recording at the same level as the band played it in
the studio:-)


Same level at home too;?...

There was another consideration. As this pair of speakers
had been presented to Decca by PW himself, none of us
wanted the unenviable task of knocking on the door of the
technical director and tell him they had been damaged.


How very considerate..

I remember seeing some being tested at the factory once and they were
fed with a square wave and the output on the scope from the B&K Mic was
... well .. very square..
Iain




--
Tony Sayer

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:20:27 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

Colouration is certainly the biggest problem with 'horns' after their
size - some colouration is easy to absorb and totally forget/ignore; some
isn't; some 'horns' are more 'coloured' than others. Whatever - all in
all, it's a small price to pay for an overall 'best sound' if, say, male
voices sound a bit quacky when you almost *never* hear a male voice
speaking on your system!

Lowthers and also those old Altecs that were ubiquitious in the 70s
give a valve trombone sound to die for:-)

Trouble is, they do it when you play a recording of a viola :-)

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote


I agree. I still think there is no one loudspeaker fror all aplications


I've isolated this phrase to say I've been saying the *same thing* here
for years and is why I have always tended to have as many as three pairs
of speakers on the go (at different times), in the same room!

Having what is often described as 'catholic tastes' (Bjork/Bach), there's
plenty of stuff I like to play loud (occasionally) that I wouldn't want
played on my Lowthers!!



There is no "holy grail" of loudspeakers.


If there was, I suspect it would be common knowledge by now and there
wouldn't be much else available that was too different!


You pick the
one you think will give you the most accurate information
for the project in hand. People involved in professional
recording know this, and switch happily from B+W to JBL
to Tannoy project to project Ofen the client has a preference
also:-)


Good. I'm relieved I'm not alone!! ;-)

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


I do have form in this as I did once set fire to a 57. 8-]


:-)



TBH I've long come to regard the Quads as "the world's largest pair of
headphones" because of the critical sweetspot, placing, etc.
Fortunately, the results when right are excellent, and the sound can
be enjoyed by others sitting elsewhere - if they are less fussy about
imaging.


Ever tried Stax 'Earspeakers'? Only about 400 quid a pair, I believe!!



Fortunately, 'Drum and Bass' 'pop music' isn't one of my interests...



Nor mine - my music tastes aren't *that* catholic....

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


Yes, makes sense. Getting them setup in a room can be a real trial, and
may
never work out in some rooms. So some people might try them for weeks
before deciding to try summat else. However I fell in love with the way
they allowed me to forget I was listening via loudspeakers.


I like it when the sound is 'outside the box' which it has been for me, ever
since I have been using horns. No-one (including Plowie's milkman) has any
idea which of three pairs of speakers is working at any time without going
right up to see!! (Lowthers don't move much - 1.5mm max? :-)


You mention 'imaging' and the 'sweet spot fussiness' - this is possibly
the most important requirement for me, along with detail/clarity and is
why I tend to prefer 'horns. With horns I find 'depth' (vastness, 3D
qualities) in a sound isn't lost in the right music even when I'm all
the way across the house listening to music!

Alas, the kind of imaging I'm referring to tends in my experience to
require very carefully symmetry in the listening layout, and speakers
like the Quads with a defined directional behaviour. Hence the need
to have a small sweet spot in a small room.


Imaging for me isn't anything to do with a layout of sounds - that is
academic as far as I'm concerned; it is to do with the sounds having a
realistic 'depth' - ie true 'stereo' with 3D locatability. A 'small sound'
like windchimes, for example, could almost be 'held in the hand'!


Anyway, this disc really presented a superbly natural-sounding
perspective in terms of how the voices are laid out in front of
you within the recorded acoustic. If I stand up and move sideways
the general sound is still good, but the image of how the people
singing are arranged in space vanishes.


That's a good description - it is possibly to move past the image with my
'horns' and the image doesn't falter when you approach the plane of the
speakers.


I can listen to cone-and-box speakers. Use a pair of LS35As for
'background
listening'. But they don't give me the same impression of reality that I
get from ESLs. Just a pleasing sound.


Exactly what I find - small 'domestic monitors' do a very good job with
'radio' speech and music when it is primarily background sound.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
Trust me, if I had wanted ESLs in the past I'd have got ESLs and if I
find I
want them in the future (a bit unlikely) I'll *get* ESLs!!

Will that do ya? :-)

Yeabut you'd never get a SET amp to drive 'em

Unless you've got a few old transmitting triodes around;!...


I know your only joking, but I'll point out that the 'holy trinity' for me
is 'valves (triodes), vinyl and horns' - for other situations I use whatever
amp and speakers best suit the requirements.

Atm, my speaker/amp setups are as follows:

Vinyl - 2A3 SET/Fidelios (horns)

Cinema 1 - Sony SS multichannel/Ruarks/Tannoys

Cinema 2 - KT88 PP valves/ Buschhorn Mk IIs (horns)

Computer - Denon SS/Cyburg 'Needles' (horns)

Garage - Roberts radio

Bathroom - Roberts radio

Car - Pioneer CD/radio

Almost dominated by single, 'fullrange' drivers aren't I...??

:-)