cd recordings v's minidisc recordings
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Professional SFX libraries, Hollywood Edge, Sound Ideas,
De Wolfe etc etc, issue material on CD, so professional
installations still use accurately cueable CD players to
spin these effects in on the fly.

These are only building blocks for your own SFX list.
You'd hardly ever use them direct.

Totally agreed. Just another example of how Iain lacks hands-on experience
with the areas he purports to advise.

You'd compile the
wanted ones on to your own medium - no matter what that
was.

Exactly.

The last thing you need is swapping CDs etc
unnecessarily.

Precisely. Do this sort of thing once in your life, and you realize that the
library discs have their place - back in the editing room.

BTW - you missed out the BBC library. Far, far, better
than any of the above for UK use.

Often the SFX of your dreams can be found online with a little searching on
Google. Also, if you have a mic and can record, you can resort to a lot of
Foley man's tricks, many of which involve household items.

cd recordings v's minidisc recordings
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

No idea about the specific systems Tony actually worked
with. However I've certainly encountered a situation
where the analogue output of a computer generated
unwanted noises on its analogue output that were due to
its internal psu or wiring - even when just listened to
via headphones.

Of course, and I've had similar experiences while listening to headphones
driven by power amplifiers, mixing consoles, receivers, and just about every
other kind of audio component that there is. So, then to follow your alleged
logic - abandon them all?

Futhermore, I dispute whether or not you actually did a proper diagnosis of
the situation often enough to make a well-substantiated claim.

So I can't at present see any reason to
doubt his practical experience simply on the basis of a general theory.

Would you describe those noises as "hum"? I wouldn't.

YMMV. Interfacing to an unbalanced output from a computer is one of those
areas where any number of people have stubbed their toe. However, I've never
found a situation where a rational troubleshooting approach wouldn't work.

As you are no doubt well aware it's possible to detect
background noise far more easily listening on headphones
than on speakers. I'm not disputing that some computer
sound cards, particularly integrated audio on laptops,
create noises that can be readily detected on headphones,
or even on speakers in a quiet room. But a theatre is not
a quiet room, my point of disagreement is whether any
computer sound card (except possibly a faulty one)
creates unwanted noises so loud as to cause a problem in
the context of this thread, ie. a SFX sound system used
with a stage performance.

Agreed. I would like to see *anybody* on this forum substantiate a claim
that they have been involved with more live performances where computers
were audio sources related to dramatic presntations of voice and music than
I. I find that a good on-board audio interface can be more than sufficient.

cd recordings v's minidisc recordings
 

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
I think CEP is perfect for the whole application, recording,editing and
play back of SFX. You can set labelled markers,. and also see the
envelope of the effect that is coming up, to make gain change if
required. The sequencer will skip from marker to marker instantly as
required. You can zoom to event level or keep the whole sequence in
view.

Perfect, and simple too.

Seems neither 'perfect' nor 'simple' to me when the task comes to just
playing the sfx files on cue. Too many options for an 'Oops!' moment at
that point.

Makes sense to use flexible editing software, etc, to prepare the sfx
files. But if it were me waiting anxiously for cues in the dark wings of
a performance I'd prefer a much simpler way to play them on cue.

Yup. One large button. ;-)

I get the impression those who recommend CEP etc have never actually done
this sort of thing in anger. ;-) Rather the same as some of those who
specify/supply equipment etc supposedly designed for this job.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, try management *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

cd recordings v's minidisc recordings
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message

In article , tony sayer

wrote:
..

That one is quiet, very quiet and has digital AES/EBU
and balanced analogue outputs thereon but these cards
aren't that cheap..

There are some good PC cards but -sometimes- the
limitation is what's going on inside the PC, not the
best environ for high quality audio especially when a
large PA is hung on the output.

Hence the idea of an external card with balanced outs....

No matter what you may read on UKRA, their name is legion and their
performance can be very good, or better.

I now have a number of computers in the house with a wide
range of hardware. I would not use any of the analogue
outputs from any of them for serious listening.

That can be true, depending on a number of things. I suspect that to some
degree, its a self-fulfilling sitaution.

Yet with an external DAC they can provide excellent results. The
snag is then obviously the cost, etc, of an external DAC.

Seems like a sledge-hammer approach.

Afraid my own experience of 'computer audio' makes me
rather doubt the general level of quality from their
analogue outputs.

Then your experience is far from being comprehensive in that area.

I fear the problem here is an extreme
version of the one with hi fi mags. No-one in the
computer mags is actually carefully testing this on a
routine basis to a high standard.

I did it for more than a decade at www.pcavtech.com. I closed the site
because I felt that computer audio had progressed to the point where it was
moot.

So makers cheerfully get away with things.

A very large proportion of all professional audio is now done with
computers, including applications that involve analog inputs and outputs.

cd recordings v's minidisc recordings
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message

I get the impression those who recommend CEP etc have
never actually done this sort of thing in anger. ;-)

Obviously a joke.

I recommend CEP as an obsolete, but effective tool for editing. So as you
have stated, I recommend CEP.

I would *never* recommend its use as a SFX player for supporting the
performance of a drama. In fact I've recommended a number of alternatives.

Rather the same as some of those who specify/supply
equipment etc supposedly designed for this job.

This regrettably applies to certain but not all people who post on UKRA.

cd recordings v's minidisc recordings
 

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message
In article
, Arny
Krueger wrote:
As does MiniDisc - one of the things which attracted me
to it as a replacement for 1/4" tape and NAB cart
machines etc for SFX use.

The continued discussion of MD mystefies me.

Because it was first mentioned as being ideal for the job?

Because it is obsolete. Becuase I have a MD recorder that has been
sitting on the shelf for over 5 years. Because I'm on my second
generation of replacements for it.

Just because you prefer something else for the job you use it for doesn't
make it universally ideal.

Of course things have moved on - but if it was fine then
it will still be fine now.

By modern standards MD was never fine.

You're welcome to your opinion - no matter how wrong it
is.

In this case I'm 100% correct. As soon as something better came along,
MD was dropped by the marketplace like a hot potato. If it wasn't dying
fast enough, Sony drove a spike through its heart with an acute attack
of DRM.

MD was never adopted by 'the market place' in the UK. Try finding a car
unit with one.

For example, modern standards for portable digital media include the
absence of moving parts. As much as I think its a useless format for
audio recording, another requirement is 24/96 PCM. To be a
professional tool it needs to handle professional microphones with
professional Phantom power.

Err, as usual you're missing the point. The discussion is about a simple
to use essentially playback system for amateur theatricals, etc. Not for
recording music on location.

Does anyone do software designed for this sort of use?

If CEP is "too powerful", then Audacity must be about right.

Too complicated too for what is needed.

Prove it.

Cool Edit etc are just too complicated, IMHO, for
someone who just wants something basic.

The trouble with "something basic" is that people's
applications often grow with their understanding of the
problem at hand.

Programs are usually written to appeal to those who think
they need all the bells and whistles - even although they
never use them.

I'm trying to remember what feature CEP has that I've never used. I'm
stitting here looking at its command menu. I've used everything on it,
and down several levels.

What you do and don't use is irrelevant in this context.

--
*Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

cd recordings v's minidisc recordings
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message

When there is a lack of communication as evidenced here, one has to question
the value of discussing *anything* with certain people.

In article
, Arny
Krueger wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message
In article
, Arny
Krueger wrote:
As does MiniDisc - one of the things which attracted
me to it as a replacement for 1/4" tape and NAB cart
machines etc for SFX use.

The continued discussion of MD mystefies me.

Because it was first mentioned as being ideal for the
job?

Because it is obsolete. Becuase I have a MD recorder
that has been sitting on the shelf for over 5 years.
Because I'm on my second generation of replacements for
it.

Just because you prefer something else for the job you
use it for doesn't make it universally ideal.

Unresponsive to my comments.

Of course things have moved on - but if it was fine
then it will still be fine now.

By modern standards MD was never fine.

You're welcome to your opinion - no matter how wrong it
is.

In this case I'm 100% correct. As soon as something
better came along, MD was dropped by the marketplace
like a hot potato. If it wasn't dying fast enough, Sony
drove a spike through its heart with an acute attack of
DRM.

MD was never adopted by 'the market place' in the UK. Try
finding a car unit with one.

Unresponsive to my comments.


For example, modern standards for portable digital media
include the absence of moving parts. As much as I think
its a useless format for audio recording, another
requirement is 24/96 PCM. To be a professional tool it
needs to handle professional microphones with
professional Phantom power.

Err, as usual you're missing the point. The discussion is
about a simple to use essentially playback system for
amateur theatricals, etc. Not for recording music on
location.

Unresponsive to my comments.


Does anyone do software designed for this sort of use?

If CEP is "too powerful", then Audacity must be about
right.

Too complicated too for what is needed.

Prove it.

No responsive to my question.


Cool Edit etc are just too complicated, IMHO, for
someone who just wants something basic.

The trouble with "something basic" is that people's
applications often grow with their understanding of the
problem at hand.

Programs are usually written to appeal to those who
think they need all the bells and whistles - even
although they never use them.

I'm trying to remember what feature CEP has that I've
never used. I'm stitting here looking at its command
menu. I've used everything on it, and down several
levels.

What you do and don't use is irrelevant in this context.

Unresponsive to my comments.

cd recordings v's minidisc recordings
 

In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:
"David Looser" wrote in message

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

No idea about the specific systems Tony actually worked with. However
I've certainly encountered a situation where the analogue output of a
computer generated unwanted noises on its analogue output that were
due to its internal psu or wiring - even when just listened to via
headphones.

Of course, and I've had similar experiences while listening to
headphones driven by power amplifiers, mixing consoles, receivers, and
just about every other kind of audio component that there is. So, then
to follow your alleged logic - abandon them all?

Sorry, the "alleged logic" there is your own interjection. Straw Man method
of debate. :-)

Futhermore, I dispute whether or not you actually did a proper diagnosis
of the situation often enough to make a well-substantiated claim.

Feel free to do so. :-)

I did record the output and find the noises in question showed up when that
was analysed. But you are of course free to dismiss this before you even
try to find out what kind of noises they were, etc. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

cd recordings v's minidisc recordings
 

On 14/03/2010 11:32, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In a.com, Rob
wrote:
On 13/03/2010 15:24, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article6dCdnTyMYPMkOAbWnZ2dnUVZ_jmdnZ2d@giganews. com, Arny
wrote:


You can of course spend your own money as you choose and do things as
suit you. I'm just pointing out that others may choose other ways
which they find more convenient, cheaper, etc, even if daring to be
different to yourself. The point being that they can choose to follow
you or do otherwise as suits them *once* they know alternatives exist.
I have no idea what would suit the OP best. But simply saying "use
PPT" doesn't strike me as what I'd call an extensive menu of options.
Although I guess it would suit MicroSoft nicely if people believed
there were no alternatives. :-)


Your notion of choice could be a little tedious.

Only as "tedious" the individual chooses - and as the default view allows
(cf below). But yes, reality does mean that at times we have to put in some
effort if we want to do anything other that "follow sheep".


Yes, only as tedious as the individual might choose. FFS :-)


Microsoft has been dragged through the courts precisely because of its
restrictive behaviour, which has in turn influenced what a lot of people
learn and see. It's not right, but choice is fettered and it takes a
little bit more than you seem to suggest to pick an option.

I'd agree with the bulk of the above. But that is, I am afraid, the
reality. If people cannae be bothered then they will simply pick the
'popular' option. Again that is their choice. The question is regarding if
it is an *informed* choice, of course.


If someone, a student say, where you (used to) teach chose Linux to use
at their university, how would that pan out? They have a choice, it is
informed, but can they implement that choice?

It is the inertia that accompanies these options that I don't think you
explain fully.

I used 'popular' above deliberately as I've noted MicroSoft use that term
on more than one occasion. e.g. in this week's "Click" TV prog on BBC News
24 where the M$ browser was said to be "popular" by their droid. Yes it is,
of course, in the same sense that "death" and "taxes" are 'popular'... 8-]


Some of their stuff is quite good IMHO - Excel for example.

In the end, education and understanding do take some effort, time, etc. And
we do find at times that big companies, etc, get into dominating positions
where they end up fogging the view people have of alternatives. But as the
maxim says, "If you think Education is expensive - try ignorance!"


And if you think ignorance is expensive, you could do well to look at
university fees. What you're talking about now is gambling.


As I think I've said more than once, of people cannae be bothered and just
take a default that is their choice, and the outcomes then follow. Either
they are happy with that or not. Their choice. All I and others can do is
point out that alternatives do exist. Up to people to investigate or not as
they choose.


Of course, and there are some very good reasons why people don't choose
options you put forward. I take it you agree with that? Or do you think
that, so far as you know, people are just too lazy (cf bothered thesis)?/!

Wake up man, lightweight OSs are even being expunged from cellphones.

What a superbly chosen technical argument. :-) Particularly when a
"lightweight OS" might have left them more memory space and CPU power
for the actual applications they wanted to run. Isn't modern
technology wonderful! :-)


Intuitively, I agree, although I think the 'fat' shows in battery life.
Memory and CPU aren't issues.

That depends on the application and circumstances. e.g. I don't want a CPU
that essentially demands a noisy fan if the box is to be for playing music.
The higher the power demand of the CPU, the more likely you will end up
needing a fan or extra hardware of some other kind. And memory is like
money. It doesn't matter *once* you have 'enough'. :-)


Yes, I was talking about phones there - my iphone has a more powerful
processor (etc for all I know) than my ipod touch, but it really doesn't
make much real life difference except to battery life.

This SSD iMac is virtually silent most of the time - although all 4
processors at 100% for 20 minutes or so does cause one of the fans to
pick up. Typing now, the machine is using about half the electricity of
14" CRT monitor, and that's including the 27" screen. I think you can
have cake and eat it, if you have enough money.

Rob

cd recordings v's minidisc recordings
 

In article , Rob
wrote:
On 14/03/2010 11:32, Jim Lesurf wrote:



Microsoft has been dragged through the courts precisely because of
its restrictive behaviour, which has in turn influenced what a lot of
people learn and see. It's not right, but choice is fettered and it
takes a little bit more than you seem to suggest to pick an option.

I'd agree with the bulk of the above. But that is, I am afraid, the
reality. If people cannae be bothered then they will simply pick the
'popular' option. Again that is their choice. The question is
regarding if it is an *informed* choice, of course.


If someone, a student say, where you (used to) teach chose Linux to use
at their university, how would that pan out? They have a choice, it is
informed, but can they implement that choice?

I do still teach there (gave a lecture this afternoon)[1]. Some of the
students *do* choose to use Linux for their work and personal computing. As
do some members of staff. People run/use Windows, Macs, Linux, Solaris,
RISC OS etc, as they prefer. As you might expect, Linux is more common in
the physics and other science areas.

We also have clusters or villages of machines around for common use, and
these also run various OSs, etc. Most of these tend to be Windows or Macs
where our servers of main machines tend to be Solaris. But this all evolves
as suits those involved.

So I'm not quite sure what you are asking with respect to "how can
they...". The residences all have broadband sockets on our network and
they can connect their own machines fo whatever type. Ditto for the
offices, etc.

It is the inertia that accompanies these options that I don't think you
explain fully.

Oh, I agree with that. Yes, because Windows is what people mostly see (and
may not know of the alternatives) then they often go for that as the
'default'. But a student here might have a Mac for their personal use, but
use Windows boxes or something else when they use one of the Uni-provided
'village' machines. And so on. In general no-one is bothered what type
someone else uses.

I used 'popular' above deliberately as I've noted MicroSoft use that
term on more than one occasion. e.g. in this week's "Click" TV prog on
BBC News 24 where the M$ browser was said to be "popular" by their
droid. Yes it is, of course, in the same sense that "death" and
"taxes" are 'popular'... 8-]


Some of their stuff is quite good IMHO - Excel for example.

I don't argue with that. My point hasn't been that "All MicroSoft software
is rubbish". I have no worry that many people find it useful and suits them
OK.

In the end, education and understanding do take some effort, time,
etc. And we do find at times that big companies, etc, get into
dominating positions where they end up fogging the view people have of
alternatives. But as the maxim says, "If you think Education is
expensive - try ignorance!"


And if you think ignorance is expensive, you could do well to look at
university fees. What you're talking about now is gambling.

Life is a gamble. :-)

Although personally I remain opposed to the idea of charging undergrads
fees in the UK. Note I work/live in Scotland, not England. The arrangements
are different here as we have a different education system to south of the
line. :-)

As I think I've said more than once, of people cannae be bothered and
just take a default that is their choice, and the outcomes then
follow. Either they are happy with that or not. Their choice. All I
and others can do is point out that alternatives do exist. Up to
people to investigate or not as they choose.


Of course, and there are some very good reasons why people don't choose
options you put forward. I take it you agree with that? Or do you think
that, so far as you know, people are just too lazy (cf bothered
thesis)?/!

No. Some people are lazy, of course. Others simply don't know there are
alternatives. Others are comfortable with what they first used and don;'t
look around. That is their choice.

My concerns are just that the situation is biassed by a combination of
ignorance and a 'market' that is essentially rigged to make one OS and
software source seem to many as being 'a computer' and puts impediments in
the way of alternatives being offerred to people in shops on a fair basis.
In effect, if you walk into many UK computer shops or offices you just see
Windows and people regarding 'computer skilled' to mean "can use Word and
other standard MicroSoft apps". No sign of anything else.

We have a small 'computer shop' in town although we have thousands of
undergrads. When I looked in and asked they had no machines running Linux,
and no Macs. The default assumption here is not that 'apples' are the only
fruit... maybe a lemon instead. 8-]

For me the problems are things like hardware makers who only sell models
'bundled with Windows' so various hardware choices mean you have to pay for
Windows as well even if you don't want it. And devices and cards where the
makers only provide drivers in a closed way for Windows. Add in shops and
offices that show no sign of anything else, and the result is
anti-competitive and restrictive of choice.


That depends on the application and circumstances. e.g. I don't want a
CPU that essentially demands a noisy fan if the box is to be for
playing music. The higher the power demand of the CPU, the more likely
you will end up needing a fan or extra hardware of some other kind.
And memory is like money. It doesn't matter *once* you have 'enough'.
:-)


Yes, I was talking about phones there - my iphone has a more powerful
processor (etc for all I know) than my ipod touch, but it really doesn't
make much real life difference except to battery life.

This SSD iMac is virtually silent most of the time - although all 4
processors at 100% for 20 minutes or so does cause one of the fans to
pick up. Typing now, the machine is using about half the electricity of
14" CRT monitor, and that's including the 27" screen. I think you can
have cake and eat it, if you have enough money.

Yes, if you have money and the ability to make an informed choice. If you'd
been given no sign that Macs existed... :-)

FWIW The new Acer laptop I bought a while ago has a 60 GB SSD instead of a
conventional HD. I can't be sure but I think it is quieter, faster, and
less prone to the fan starting as a result. But I just judge it by the
results. (Using Xubuntu+ROX in this case.)

I do use it some of the time as a sound radio iPlayer for the living room.
If I close down the lid so the screen goes off the batteries seem to last
about 4 hours in that kind of use. The fan may come on after about 25 mins
of that use from cold. TV iPlayer is more demanding but I don't use that
much.

Given my druther's I'd love to be able to run RO native on such hardware,
though. 8-]

Slainte

Jim

[1] Now an 'Honorary Reader' which sounds great until you realise that
'Honorary' means 'we won't pay you like we used to'. But it means I can
pick and choose what to do, or not, and has let me keep the office and
anechoic chamber. 8-]

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html