Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message

"David Looser" wrote in
message ...

So if you want to claim that modern TTs sound better
than those of 40 years ago I suggest that some evidence
would help your cause. I don't mean personal anecdotes,
but a properly conducted listening test.

Exactly, but not so 'easily 'doable' in the real world
unless you have the resources of a trade magazine, then
you'll have the journos to write it all up in a
completely subjective, flowery and meaningless way.

Our audio club did TT-related DBTs back in the 70s:

http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_phca.htm

The same basic methodology could be used to compare
turntables.
But I don't actually *know* that because I haven't
tried any really expensive turntables...

I've been to enough high end audio shows and visited
with enough well-heeled LP true believers to have
listened to some really expensive stuff.

No matter what they say, it isn't the second coming... The LPs still
sound like LPs.

Thankfully - no point in all that faff and hassle if the
result sounded like a CD/download is there?

You keep changing the subject.


I played records all afternoon today (seriously ****ty
weather) - the moment the needle went down I was
'gripped' by the sound!
:-)

Easily explainable by simple sentimentality.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

I played records all afternoon today (seriously ****ty weather) - the
moment the needle went down I was 'gripped' by the sound!


Morning Keith

What better way to spend an afternoon?

As a result of restructuring during and after
the last recession in 1990, many record
companies, promo agencies, and cultural
foundations now have quite young
executives who were not very familiar with
vinyl.

When I needed to do the rounds and visit
potential clients, I used to take examples of
my work with me. Many recordings were
boxed sets, released both on CD and vinyl.

When I passed these across the desk, it
was always the vinyl that caught their
attention.

I think that more labels would like to be
able to issue material on both CD and vinyl
but even if the retail price of the LP is double that
of the CD, the production, pressing and printing costs
are ten times. Convincing the bean counters is
no easy task:-)

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

Can you point at some evidence to resolve this? I have no idea what
occurs in this specific case.

You may wish then to direct your question to:
http://www.boesendorfer.com/en/contact.html

TBH for my present purposes it is sufficient that your responses indicate
that you don't know.

None of us, not even the physics professor, knows for sure.
That's why I took the trouble to supply you with a link to
Bösendorfer customer relations dept.

They will have the information you require at their finger tips,
if you have the genuine interest to take the matter up with them.

TBH for my present purposes it is sufficient that your response indicates
that you do not:-) It takes 15 secs to write an e-mail.



Regards
Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote

When I needed to do the rounds and visit
potential clients, I used to take examples of
my work with me. Many recordings were
boxed sets, released both on CD and vinyl.

When I passed these across the desk, it
was always the vinyl that caught their
attention.

You'd probably find that you'd attract even more attention by passing across
copies on cylinders, or 35mm film. The point being that attention doesn't
necessarily translate into a wish to own or play the material in that
medium.

I think that more labels would like to be
able to issue material on both CD and vinyl
but even if the retail price of the LP is double that
of the CD, the production, pressing and printing costs
are ten times. Convincing the bean counters is
no easy task:-)

I don't think I understand that. As you surely must be far more aware than
me most of the retail cost of a recording is in artists fees and recording
costs, or retailer's mark-up, not production, pressing or printing costs. So
if the retail price is double how can that *not* mean a far higher profit
for LP sales?

I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at a time when CDs
cost roughly double that of the equivalent LP. Possibly people like the idea
of a buying a 'premium' (read more expensive) product.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

Given that there is a thriving business and hobby based on transcribing
LPs whose music was never released on CD by the original producer that you
routinely ignore Iain, this is just another poorly-informed speculation of
yours.

Indeed. I am involved in this, with some 300
masters from tape, vinyl and metal masters transcribed,
restored and archived to date.

I would hardly call it a thriving business. The care and
attention and thus the number of hours, or days spent in
restoration of old material if done properly, means that
recompense when divided by the fee by the number hours
worked, is not generous.

In the UK there is a small band of very
dedicated people, who are at the forefront of
transcription activity, and the Cedar system, widely
used professionally in Europe, was developed as
the result of research done at Cambridge University.

Have you any idea of the amount of classical
material held in UK, German, French and Russian
archives, Arny? The BBC have a record division and publish
some material for educational and commercial purposes.
Many broadcasters have no such outlet.

It is estimated that less than 50% of previously
published material is available on CD, and now
with shrinking sales, the chances of release are
even slimmer.¨
¨
I have on my desk a transfer from tape of some
early recordings believed to be of brilliant
baritone jazz saxophonist Johnny Ekh.
If these can be authenticated, they will make
an important and interesting release.

But, hei, what does all this matter? As long as Walmart
are selling those cheap compilations of Kenny G by
the containerload.

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an
extent that HMV have announced the closure of 60
retail outlets,

So there has not been a strong transition of CD sales
from brick-and-mortar local store to superstore and web
in Europe, as there has been in the US?

Indeed there has. If you were a European you would know
that HMV *is* the superstore, or one of them, with
incredible stocks, and very knowledgeable and helpful
sales personel. No on-line outlet can offer this level of
friendly service and expertise.

If there are 60 of them in a place the size of the UK, then they are not
what we recognize as superstores in the US.

There are far more, sixty of which are scheduled to close.


No such thing as anything like a Best Buy or Wal Mart
"Big box" store in Europe that wipes out neighborhood
stores for miles around?

See above.

What one sees above Iain is more proof of your ignorance about the normal
scale of doing things in the US.

Why should that be of the slightest interest to me?
This is a) a UK group, and b) I live in Scandinavia,
where N.America and N.American values are held in low
esteem.

I wonder how may record salesmen/women at your
famous Walmart could direct a customer to what
he/she considers the best three versions of
the Quartets of Alexander Kopylov?

I still smile about the female contender on an
American TV quizz show, who, when asked to
name a famous Russian composer replied
confidenty "John Lenin"

HMV has always been known for the quality
of its service, and the expertise of its staff. There
is no substitute for personal over-the-counter contact
wih a knowledgeable salesperson

Interesting how LP bigots are also so quick to cite the
loss of sales on physical media (CD) but always forget
to mention the vast increase in sales of downloads.

Dowloads are at 128 and 256kbs so can hardly be claimed to be a quality
replacement for the CD.


Not so much @ 128k MP3, but 256k AAC surely gets the job done.

It seems that most free and low cost downloads are as 128kbs

Just more evidence of your lack of practical experience with downloads,
Iain.

I have both iTunes and Spotify Premium but don't really
need them with direct access to archives, and review
copies on both CD and vinyl of new releases and re-issues
arriving almost daily by post.

I spend the yesterday evening listening to some excellent
Teddy Wilson tracks, privately recorded in Sweden, and
pressed on LP in small quantity.


Compared to CD and download sales numbers, everything LP is produced in
nearly vanishingly small quantities.

As the London Jewish tailors used to say "Never mind the quality,
feel the width" :-))

You totally miss the point. By having a high quality turntable, I was
able to enjoy a series of remarkable privately made, and privately
distributed recordings. This pleasure would have been denied to
me if I had only a CD player. For me, it is the music that is important.
If people are listening to, and enjoying music it doesn't matter to me
if they do so using a Magnetofon K1:-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D...%80%D1%85).jpg

The likelyhood of their ever
being released on CD is very small indeed.

That probably speaks to the geriatric and miniscule nature of their
market.

Geriatric? Berklee, and hundreds of other schools
of music throughout the US, and Europe are brim full of students
studying the techniques of those you term as geriatric, whose
performances are rarely surpassed.

Jazz has always been a small market.
Baroque is also a small market. Should we stop recording baroque
music altogether because mega boxed sets of Giles Farnaby are
not available at Walmart? Does make the music of lesser
consequence in your opinion?

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

David Looser wrote:

Modern turntables work no better than those of the 1970s,

I would be interested to know, David, have you even seen,
let alone auditioned, a Verdier or SME?

No, I have seen neither. Indeed I've never even heard of a Verdier and,
whilst I am familiar with SME arms, I was not aware that they also made
turntables.

I find it surprising that you should make such a sweeping statement without
even knowing of the existence of Verdier, and without knowing that SME
make what are widely considered to be the finest turnable and pick up
arms in the world.

http://www.sme.ltd.uk/


But say I had "auditioned" these turntables, what would that prove, unless
I had been able to compare them with every TT made in the 1970s? There are
many fine turntables dating from the 1970s which are still in use and
whose owners will claim sound every bit as good as anything more recent.

Yes. I have a pristine Garrard 401, built in 1976, and bought NOS
in its factory-sealed carton just a few years ago. It is a very fine
turntable indeed for the money. I have used it, together with the
SME arm and Shure V15 for professional transcriptions, but the
rumble figs - stated by the designer Eric Marshall to be "virtually
non-existant" are bettered by both SME and Verdier -something
which is clearly audible when using pro monitors such as B+W
Nautilus 800 powered with Cown Macro Tech MA 5000i

If you want to make a comparison, you simply pick those that
were considered the best at that time.The audition that I attended,
organised by the local section of the AES, picked Garrard 401,
EMT and a Telefunken 600, a Transcriptors.and couple of
others the names of which I no longer recall, plus an SME
and a Verdier. We had a panel of a dozen or so people.
Verdier was the tuntable of choice.

So if you want to claim that modern TTs sound better than those of 40
years ago I suggest that some evidence would help your cause. I don't mean
personal anecdotes, but a properly conducted listening test.

See above.

[BTW a properly conducted listening test includes the following
requirements: listening panel of at least a dozen, preferably more.
Listeners to know nothing about the test in advance (i.e.. they don't know
they are listening to turntables, let alone which ones), Each listener
listens on their own to avoid influencing each other, order of
presentation to vary with each listener to avoid precedence effects and
inclusion of 'trick' comparisons (e.g., both A and B are the same TT) to
see how much listeners are subconsciously trying to provide the answers
they think are expected.]

Would it not be more valuable to you to get up out
of that comfy armchair and do your own tests, and
reach your own conclusions?

I'm off to Denmark in a couple of hours.

Regards
Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote

When I needed to do the rounds and visit
potential clients, I used to take examples of
my work with me. Many recordings were
boxed sets, released both on CD and vinyl.

When I passed these across the desk, it
was always the vinyl that caught their
attention.

You'd probably find that you'd attract even more attention by passing
across copies on cylinders, or 35mm film. The point being that attention
doesn't necessarily translate into a wish to own or play the material in
that medium.

I think that more labels would like to be
able to issue material on both CD and vinyl
but even if the retail price of the LP is double that
of the CD, the production, pressing and printing costs
are ten times. Convincing the bean counters is
no easy task:-)

I don't think I understand that. As you surely must be far more aware than
me most of the retail cost of a recording is in artists fees and recording
costs, or retailer's mark-up, not production, pressing or printing costs.
So if the retail price is double how can that *not* mean a far higher
profit for LP sales?

The cost of a recording, artists fees and recording costs
are not affected. It is only the cost of the distribution medium that
varies. Other costs, VAT and dealer's markup are proportional.

I also note that CD sales soared and LP sales slumped at a time when CDs
cost roughly double that of the equivalent LP.


CD prices were supposed to be greatlty reduced once
initial manufacturing problems, and the high reject rate
were overcome. This did not happen

Despite being a niche market, the public have accepted
the considerable rise in the cost of an LP as the
improvement in quality both in the pressing and
presentation is there for all too see/hear. It was
widley thought that an increase in price might kill off
existing sales. This has proved not to be the case.

Possibly people like the idea of a buying a 'premium' (read more expensive)
product.

Can't see any logic in that. The parallel issues that I have
all point to the fact that the LP gives a more pleasurable
listening experience. Vinyl production does not suffer
from the demand to make it as loud as possible for in-car
use which has greatly afflicted the pop CD.

In haste

Iain

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote


I find it surprising that you should make such a sweeping statement
without
even knowing of the existence of Verdier, and without knowing that SME
make what are widely considered to be the finest turnable and pick up
arms in the world.

You must have missed the bit where I said I was familier with SME arms :-(


If you want to make a comparison, you simply pick those that
were considered the best at that time.The audition that I attended,
organised by the local section of the AES, picked Garrard 401,
EMT and a Telefunken 600, a Transcriptors.and couple of
others the names of which I no longer recall, plus an SME
and a Verdier. We had a panel of a dozen or so people.
Verdier was the tuntable of choice.

Was that "audition" conducted according to the requirementrs of a listening
test?, or did you all sit around listening together and in full knowledge of
what you were listening to? Because if the later the "audition" has no
value.

Would it not be more valuable to you to get up out
of that comfy armchair and do your own tests, and
reach your own conclusions?

What would my own tests prove? no more than your personal anecdotes do. I
listen to vinyl so rarely that the relative merits of expensive TTs is of
little interest to me. Unlike Keith, apparently, (and in company with a very
large proportion of the population) I find vinyl irritating rather than
"gripping" and only use when there is no alternative.

I guess you don't watch British TV. There was a recent series called "Turn
Back Time" in which the TV production company took over some empty shops in
the centre of Shepton Mallet, set them up as shops from a particular era in
the past and brought in volunteer retailers to run them as shops of that
era. The first era was the 1870s, the last the 1970s (via Edwardian, 1930s,
wartime and 1960s). In the 1970 era one shop was set up as a 1970s record
shop and the volunteer "owner" was required to sell recorded music 1970s
style, ie on vinyl. He didn't do well, the population of Shepton Mallet
didn't make a bee-line to his door rdemanding to buy LPs, quite the
contrary. On the other hand the woman who ran a 1970s style clothes shop
did very well.


I'm off to Denmark in a couple of hours.

Have fun!

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:


Exactly, but not so 'easily 'doable' in the real world unless you
have the resources of a trade magazine,

Actually quite 'doable' by amateurs **if** they want to actually do
so. But not something achieved by casual listening at home where the
object is simply to enjoy the music.


Make that 'doable by *wealthy* amateurs and I'm with you.

Yes their either have to be 'wealthy' enough to buy the items they compare,
or be able to arrange for a loan or use of equipment from someone else.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html