Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


The lowest bass guitar notes I
know of off-hand is at about 30-35Hz IIRC on a Little Feat album.

Not just Little Feat, Jim.

My awareness of that was flagged by my use of the above phrasing. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
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Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"David Looser" wrote in message
...

But a piano note is not a pure tone, it is rich in harmonics, and it's
well known that a very low note can be implied by creating the
harmonic structure that might relate to a missing sub-audible
fundamental, the human brain "filling in" the missing fundamental.
This trick is commonly employed in organs and is, I strongly suspect,
also how the Bosendorfer Grand Imperial appears to create a note of
16.45Hz.

Well actually it's simpler than that. It has an extra octave at the
bottom end:-)

Is it? I can't say. But having a key for such a nominal 'note' doesn't
establish that it produces an audible component at 16.45Hz. As I'm sure you
are aware it has been a trick employed by organ builders to 'fake' very low
frequencies by creating their harmonics. Causing human perception to 'hear'
the (absent) LF fundamental. Simplicity is sometimes easier to assume than
to carry out in practice. :-)

A quick calculation or a glance at Grove's chart will show
that the fundamental of C(0) is indeed 16.45Hz.

But as David had pointed out, each note on a piano does not produce just a
single sinusoid. So such a 'quick calculation' may not tell you what is
actually happening.

Can you point at some evidence to resolve this? I have no idea what occurs
in this specific case.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
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Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an extent that
HMV have announced the closure of 60 retail outlets,

So there has not been a strong transition of CD sales from
brick-and-mortar local store to superstore and web in Europe, as there
has been in the US?

Indeed there has. If you were a European you would know that HMV *is*
the superstore, or one of them, with incredible stocks, and very
knowledgeable and helpful sales personel. No on-line outlet can offer
this level of friendly service and expertise.

In the UK there has been a significant distortion of the consumer market
for items like CDs. The goverment allow them to be sold 'VAT free' if they
are shipped to the Channel Islands and sold back to the mainland. This
gives bit companies who can set up a website and sell from the CI a big
advantage. VAT is currently 20 percent.

The tax break was initially a concession to aid the sales of cut flowers
when the CI had little else to sell but flowers and tomatos. Yet it is now
used for large volumes of sales for cheap consumer items. All of which
involves shipping bulk goods to the CI and back to evade... erm dodge tax.

I think I heard figures for CD sales a while ago, but can't recall the
numbers. What I do recall was that the volume of sales had only dropped a
modest amount all things considered. But local CD shops have been dropping
like flies. The implication is that people are instead using the net and
buying via the CI.

When in opposition this was one of the tax breaks for the better-off
companies the now-government promised to end. Yet they seem to have
forgotten this promise - along with various others they made before they
(weren't) elected. Odd that...

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
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Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote

Vinyl has become a thriving niche market, with people
ready and willing to make a much larger investment
for a quality turntable (much more than they are willing
to pay for a CD player, after all, they all sound the same:-)


Just as Keith points out, new vinyl issues are usually sold
out within days of release. Twenty years after vinyl's
"demise" this seems remarkable..

Whether a sold out issue is "remarkable" or not depends on the numbers sold.
If a million LPs had been pressed, and were all sold I'd agree that would be
remarkable. If, however, only 100 are pressed and all sell that is far from
remarkable. It's not hard to ensure that an issue sells out. Press slightly
fewer than the anticipated demand, advertise the issue as a "Limited
Collectors' Edition", throw in a commemorative booklet and certificate of
authenticity, and finally pack in an expensive looking sleeve.

Nobody denies that there are die-hard vinyl enthusiasts out there. There are
also die-hard enthusiasts for steam railways, veteran cars, magic lanterns,
9.5mm film, and plenty of other obsolete technologies. And all are prepared
(indeed eager) to "invest" considerable sums on their hobby.

In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an extent
that HMV have announced the closure of 60 retail outlets, and
three CD plants in the ÜK are faced with closure due to over
capacity.

Indeed, because the mass-market transition from buying music on physical
media to downloads is well advanced. CD will, in the near future, itself be
a niche market catering mainly, I guess, to classical music buyers.

But this transition is causing major problems to the recording industry.
When the mass market moved from vinyl to CD there was a temporary boost to
record company profits. Not only did CDs sell at a premium, but many people
bought CD copies of albums they already owned on vinyl. There is no
equivalent boost now. Downloads do not sell at a premium, and hardly anyone
is going to buy a download of a track they already have on a CD. Throw in
the fact that a large proportion of downloads continue to be illegal ones
that bring no income to the record companies and the situation looks grim.

It's hard to forecast exactly what state the recording industry will be in
20 years time, but it seems probable that it will be both smaller and far
less profitable than it has been in recent decades.

Quite why you seem so pleased by this downturn in the fortunes of the
industry you once worked for is a mystery to me.

David.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

In article , David Looser
wrote:

Indeed, because the mass-market transition from buying music on physical
media to downloads is well advanced. CD will, in the near future,
itself be a niche market catering mainly, I guess, to classical music
buyers.

It will be interesting to see if the CD/SACD hybrid survives when the 'hi
rez' alternatives are downloaded 96k/24 or 'higher'. possibly sic

Must admit that my own recent experiments with 'hi rez' via computers make
me wonder how many of the people playing such material via their computer
are actually *getting* output where the full data reaches the DAC! There
seems to me a real risk that for many people "I can hear music and it
sounds OK" is taken to mean "system works correctly and I'm getting what it
said on the tin" when maybe tain't so!

One of the advantages of dedicated equipment like an audio optical disc
player is that it really should just play without the kinds of snags
computer systems can bring.

But this transition is causing major problems to the recording industry.


Throw in the fact that a large proportion of downloads continue to be
illegal ones that bring no income to the record companies and the
situation looks grim.

And I doubt the big companies are helping themselves much by the ways they
try to make life harder for those who may want to play the content of
something like a CD via other methods like a home server, etc.

It's hard to forecast exactly what state the recording industry will be
in 20 years time, but it seems probable that it will be both smaller
and far less profitable than it has been in recent decades.

I'm personally hoping it will be an array of *small* companies who are
enthusiasts and will happily sell you a disc or a download to use as you
choose since their real interest is in ensuring the *music* is available. I
suspect there is more chance of this with classical/jazz/etc than 'pop
music' which has largely been a way for bigger companies to extract dosh
from all and sundry. For pop/rock I suspect individual bands will make
their output available as side-dish to their concerts.

So I'd love to see companies like Chandos and Linn music survive and
prosper.

TBH I'd personally like to see hybrid discs sold that were CD on one layer
and simply Wave or Flac LPCM 96k/24 (or even 192k/24) for a DVD layer. Then
let the buyers use as they choose. I'd be happy to pay a premium for those
*if* they also played OK on ye olde CD players, and came with decent
booklet and box. When it comes to classical or jazz, I suspect some others
would, too. I suspect most casual pop/rock listeners would prefer to get
'free' mp3s at low rates. But maybe enough of those would be interested in
a disc *if* they had an interest in better quality - or it became the
fashion item to have. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"David Looser" wrote in
message ...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in
message

You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic
instrument capable of creating these sorts of levels
at sub-audible frequencies is the pipe organ.

No others come to mind. Some of the LF information in a live music event
does not come from the instruments, but is rather sourced in the
architecture.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

Some people are nuts. ;-)

The orchestral 60" bass-drum (Turkish or Italian Gran
cassa) and contrabass sarusaphone are also close contenders
(not as oranges, but as producers of sounds that are "less like
notes and more like sensations":-)

The majority of the energy they produce is in the harmonics. The idea that
a human is going to exhale into a brass horn that is small enough to carry
around and produce substantial energy below 20 Hz is a total fantasy.

The Bosendorfer Grand Imperial concert piano is also
pretty impressive in its ability to make the earth (and
even the orange) move with C(0) at 16.45 Hz.

Just because the note is on the keyboard, doesn't mean that there is audible
output at that frequency.

At this point I've presented considerable evidence that I am intimately
familiar about what audible or at least reliably perceptible sound in the
10-20 Hz octave is really like.

I've heard a number of very large Bosendorfer pianos in a variety of
circumstances, and no way do they do anything palpable at 16 Hz.

The human ear is extremly insensitive at frequencies
below 20Hz, indeed these very low frequencies are felt,
more than heard. However it takes considerable power to
create a sound wave powerful enough to be felt in this
way. It's easy with an organ, just build a bloody great
pipe and blow a lot of air through it. However with a
piano the only source of power is the pianist's finger,
and that's not going to be powerful enough.

Agreed.

But a piano note is not a pure tone, it is rich in
harmonics, and it's well known that a very low note can
be implied by creating the harmonic structure that might
relate to a missing sub-audible fundamental, the human
brain "filling in" the missing fundamental. This trick
is commonly employed in organs and is, I strongly
suspect, also how the Bosendorfer Grand Imperial appears
to create a note of 16.45Hz.

Agreed. The same basic perceptual trick is widely used in musical
instruments. Very few organs with 16' ranks actually produce their greatest
output at the fundamental frequencies that their length implies.

Every bass acoustical instrument that I've measured produce the majority of
their energy in the harmonics, not the fundamentals.

Well actually it's simpler than that. It has an extra
octave at the bottom end:-) A quick calculation or a
glance at Grove's chart will show that the fundamental of
C(0) is indeed 16.45Hz.

People who are knowlegable about the physics of sound would have
considerable disbelief to suspend, in order to believe this. People who
actually know what 16 Hz is like when it really exists, also have their
empirical experience to rely on.

Iain's flights of fancy are well known. :-(

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

If you haven't noticed, its not the polycarbonate that
people buy and listen to, its the bits. It's the bits
that laid waste to the LP market. Matters not whether
the bits are on polycarbonate or the web, its the bits
that almost all of us listen to.

That, as I see it, Arny, is the basic flaw in your whole
approach.People listen to the music, not the medium.

That was my point. That you feel the need to correct it Iain shows how poor
your reading comprehension actually is.

There is a huge amount of music that will never be
released on CD, but fortunately an LP on a good turntable
gives exceedingly goor results.

Given that there is a thriving business and hobby based on transcribing LPs
whose music was never released on CD by the original producer that you
routinely ignore Iain, this is just another poorly-informed speculation of
yours.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an
extent that HMV have announced the closure of 60
retail outlets,

So there has not been a strong transition of CD sales
from brick-and-mortar local store to superstore and web
in Europe, as there has been in the US?

Indeed there has. If you were a European you would know
that HMV *is* the superstore, or one of them, with
incredible stocks, and very knowledgeable and helpful
sales personel. No on-line outlet can offer this level of
friendly service and expertise.

If there are 60 of them in a place the size of the UK, then they are not
what we recognize as superstores in the US.

No such thing as anything like a Best Buy or Wal Mart
"Big box" store in Europe that wipes out neighborhood
stores for miles around?

See above.

What one sees above Iain is more proof of your ignorance about the normal
scale of doing things in the US.


Interesting how LP bigots are also so quick to cite the
loss of sales on physical media (CD) but always forget
to mention the vast increase in sales of downloads.

Dowloads are at 128 and 256kbs so can hardly be claimed to be a quality
replacement for the CD.


Not so much @ 128k MP3, but 256k AAC surely gets the job done.

Just more evidence of your lack of practical experience with downloads,
Iain.

but such offsetting gains don't suit their self-serving
agendas.

Is there are a reason for your terrible vinyl phobia,
Arny?

Vinyl phobia? If I had vinyl phobia why would I have numerous LPs and 2
turntables in my house?

It certanly seems like a red rag to a bull as far as you
are concerned.

LP bigots can only cite statistics that suit their
agenda.

I spend the yesterday evening listening to some excellent
Teddy Wilson tracks, privately recorded in Sweden, and
pressed on LP in small quantity.


Compared to CD and download sales numbers, everything LP is produced in
nearly vanishingly small quantities.

The likelyhood of their ever
being released on CD is very small indeed.

That probably speaks to the geriatric and miniscule nature of their market.

Without a
turntable I would not have been able to enjoy some of the
best piano jazz I have heard for a very long time. Where, pray, is the
bigotry in that?

You've got me confused with someone who is afraid of vinyl, Iain. It's fine
in its place.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Keith G" wrote in message


Not with me it's not, my turntable is a twenty quid Lenco
L72 with a plinth I made from kitchen worktop offcuts -
see the larger of the two here, the smaller one is a
kitchen worktop sample plinth:
http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/showntell/Lencoze.JPG

It has been a very long time since I saw a Lenco of that vintage.

Substantial numbers of them never made the trip across the pond to the US.
After my personal experiences with them in Germany, I know why.

Technics direct drive turntables
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message

David Looser wrote:

Modern turntables work no better than those of the
1970s,

I would be interested to know, David, have you even seen,
let alone auditioned, a Verdier or SME?

This one is very easy to figure out. Whenever there was a *real* advance in
LP technology, there were corresponding technical articles in the usual
relevant professional journals. I know of no such articles being published
in the 1980s or later.

The IEEE and AES etc., referees don't look kindly at undocumented claims, no
doubt based on the ability to polish cosmetics as opposed to any real
advances in technical performance, and I thank them for it.