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On Sat, 7 May 2005 12:10:20 +0000 (UTC), Rob
wrote:

Tim Martin wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
...

Direct and indirect discrimination of Irish communities ... *remains* an

institutionalised aspect of

British society.


Please feel free to explain. If I understand that's going on, I'll write to
my MP and instruct him to put a stop to it.

Tim



Fair enough :-).

Take a quick look at http://www.cre.gov.uk/downloads/irinbrit.pdf -
plenty of documented evidence, although rather sketchy. Examples of
stereotypes - and that is what they are - can be found much closer to
home. In this very thread in fact.

As to why people hold these attitudes and assuming you can take them as
a 'given', the answer is complex and controversial. It's basically the
same as the answer to 'why racism?'. I have an informed opinion -
rather OT for this group ;-).

If you fancy trying this out, go into a pub with a 'No travellers' sign
in the window, and strike up a conversation about the benefits of ethnic
diversity with the locals. Make sure you have a clear route to the door.

Rob

I don't know where you live, but here in London I believe there is no
discrimination. Certainly I have several Irish friends who have never
talked to me about any troubles. On the other hand, while travelling
in the Republic, I have encountered some anti-British racism. It was
very much a minority thing, though, and it came from the kind of
moronic neanderthal who would be a racist wherever he lived.

As for the "No travellers" thing - that is rather different. There are
certainly considerable problems associated with traveller communities.
They tend to leave scenes of devastation in their wake when they leave
a district, and hugely inflated crime rates while they are present.
Whether they are Irish or not simply isn't an issue. On the other
hand, perhaps you are the one making the racial link with trouble...

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Spectacular Bookshelf Performance
 

Anyone able to tell me what these discussions have to do with the subject
threat about bookshelf speakers???




------------------------------

Tim Martin wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
...

Direct and indirect discrimination of Irish communities ... *remains* an

institutionalised aspect of

British society.


Please feel free to explain. If I understand that's going on, I'll write
to
my MP and instruct him to put a stop to it.

Tim



Fair enough :-).

Take a quick look at http://www.cre.gov.uk/downloads/irinbrit.pdf -
plenty of documented evidence, although rather sketchy. Examples of
stereotypes - and that is what they are - can be found much closer to
home. In this very thread in fact.

As to why people hold these attitudes and assuming you can take them as
a 'given', the answer is complex and controversial. It's basically the
same as the answer to 'why racism?'. I have an informed opinion -
rather OT for this group ;-).

If you fancy trying this out, go into a pub with a 'No travellers' sign
in the window, and strike up a conversation about the benefits of ethnic
diversity with the locals. Make sure you have a clear route to the door.

Rob

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Don Pearce said:

I don't know where you live, but here in London I believe there is no
discrimination.

Uh.... you're English, right?

In the States, I've heard white people say they believe discrimination
against black people is exaggerated by the media, or by social activists,
or by politicians, or by Professional Victims. The truth is that no white
person can really know how much and what kind of discrimination black
people encounter.

Remember the movie "Watermelon Man"? Maybe you could sponsor a Limerick
Man project, in which a Limey goes undercover to see what it's like for
someone who comes from the other side of the Irish Sea.

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On Sat, 07 May 2005 08:53:14 -0400, George M. Middius
wrote:



Don Pearce said:

I don't know where you live, but here in London I believe there is no
discrimination.

Uh.... you're English, right?

In the States, I've heard white people say they believe discrimination
against black people is exaggerated by the media, or by social activists,
or by politicians, or by Professional Victims. The truth is that no white
person can really know how much and what kind of discrimination black
people encounter.

Remember the movie "Watermelon Man"? Maybe you could sponsor a Limerick
Man project, in which a Limey goes undercover to see what it's like for
someone who comes from the other side of the Irish Sea.



Limey - 'scuse me? And you decided to snip the rest of my post, where
I mentioned some discrimination against me, but I guess that doesn't
suit your agenda.

As I said, my Irish friends are very happy here, and encounter no
discrimination.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Spectacular Bookshelf Performance
 

On Sat, 7 May 2005 08:49:43 -0400, "James"
wrote:

Anyone able to tell me what these discussions have to do with the subject
threat about bookshelf speakers???


Threat? Is there a conspiracy?

And this is Usenet - no subject survives beyond the third post.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Spectacular Bookshelf Performance
 

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 7 May 2005 12:10:20 +0000 (UTC), Rob
wrote:


Tim Martin wrote:

"Rob" wrote in message
...


Direct and indirect discrimination of Irish communities ... *remains* an

institutionalised aspect of


British society.


Please feel free to explain. If I understand that's going on, I'll write to
my MP and instruct him to put a stop to it.

Tim



Fair enough :-).

Take a quick look at http://www.cre.gov.uk/downloads/irinbrit.pdf -
plenty of documented evidence, although rather sketchy. Examples of
stereotypes - and that is what they are - can be found much closer to
home. In this very thread in fact.

As to why people hold these attitudes and assuming you can take them as
a 'given', the answer is complex and controversial. It's basically the
same as the answer to 'why racism?'. I have an informed opinion -
rather OT for this group ;-).

If you fancy trying this out, go into a pub with a 'No travellers' sign
in the window, and strike up a conversation about the benefits of ethnic
diversity with the locals. Make sure you have a clear route to the door.

Rob


I don't know where you live, but here in London I believe there is no
discrimination.

I live in London - presumably you're talking about Irish people. If your
friends are 'working class' Irish-Catholic I'm very surprised, but your
point is interesting. I once received a letter from Margaret Thatcher
(when she was PM) asking me to move someone from an area because (as she
saw it) the area contained Irish people, and (therefore, as she would
have it) that person was at risk from terrorists. As I say - look at the
CRE site. And to drag this thread vaguely on-topic - have a listen to
Christy Moore! Or the Pogues.

Certainly I have several Irish friends who have never
talked to me about any troubles. On the other hand, while travelling
in the Republic, I have encountered some anti-British racism. It was
very much a minority thing, though, and it came from the kind of
moronic neanderthal who would be a racist wherever he lived.

Quite!


As for the "No travellers" thing - that is rather different. There are
certainly considerable problems associated with traveller communities.
They tend to leave scenes of devastation in their wake when they leave
a district, and hugely inflated crime rates while they are present.
Whether they are Irish or not simply isn't an issue.

"They tend" - I'm afraid I don't agree. I don't mean to patronise here -
I'm sure you've checked your facts - but for anyone else who happens by
this thread - take a quick look at:

http://www.cre.gov.uk/gdpract/g_and_t_facts.html

Perhaps you could let me know your source please?

There is no tendency for travellers en bloc to *cause* problems. That
wasn't really my point. In my experience a "No travellers" sign is an
indication of bad attitudes within the pub.

On the other
hand, perhaps you are the one making the racial link with trouble...

Do you mean linking trouble with race? I don't think race is the cause
of any discrimination - it's people's attitudes about race. Now, where
they get those attitudes from is an interesting issue.

Rob

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Don Pearce said:

Remember the movie "Watermelon Man"? Maybe you could sponsor a Limerick
Man project, in which a Limey goes undercover to see what it's like for
someone who comes from the other side of the Irish Sea.

Limey - 'scuse me? And you decided to snip the rest of my post, where
I mentioned some discrimination against me, but I guess that doesn't
suit your agenda.

It's only a discussion, not an agenda. I don't care if you and the Micks
want to slaughter each other over who gets to speak for "God". Your
business.

As I said, my Irish friends are very happy here, and encounter no
discrimination.

I'll bet they've learned to pass. :-)

Seriously, though, I've never witnessed any discrimination against black
people at first-hand, yet I believe it's widespread. Maybe my lack of
direct knowledge is a result of my own discrimination in terms of the
people I hang with. I daresay you wouldn't want to be around people who
trash the Irish or any other group.

Spectacular Bookshelf Performance
 

On Sat, 7 May 2005 13:20:27 +0000 (UTC), Rob
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 7 May 2005 12:10:20 +0000 (UTC), Rob
wrote:


Tim Martin wrote:

"Rob" wrote in message
...


Direct and indirect discrimination of Irish communities ... *remains* an

institutionalised aspect of


British society.


Please feel free to explain. If I understand that's going on, I'll write to
my MP and instruct him to put a stop to it.

Tim



Fair enough :-).

Take a quick look at http://www.cre.gov.uk/downloads/irinbrit.pdf -
plenty of documented evidence, although rather sketchy. Examples of
stereotypes - and that is what they are - can be found much closer to
home. In this very thread in fact.

As to why people hold these attitudes and assuming you can take them as
a 'given', the answer is complex and controversial. It's basically the
same as the answer to 'why racism?'. I have an informed opinion -
rather OT for this group ;-).

If you fancy trying this out, go into a pub with a 'No travellers' sign
in the window, and strike up a conversation about the benefits of ethnic
diversity with the locals. Make sure you have a clear route to the door.

Rob


I don't know where you live, but here in London I believe there is no
discrimination.

I live in London - presumably you're talking about Irish people. If your
friends are 'working class' Irish-Catholic I'm very surprised, but your
point is interesting. I once received a letter from Margaret Thatcher
(when she was PM) asking me to move someone from an area because (as she
saw it) the area contained Irish people, and (therefore, as she would
have it) that person was at risk from terrorists. As I say - look at the
CRE site. And to drag this thread vaguely on-topic - have a listen to
Christy Moore! Or the Pogues.

Certainly I have several Irish friends who have never
talked to me about any troubles. On the other hand, while travelling
in the Republic, I have encountered some anti-British racism. It was
very much a minority thing, though, and it came from the kind of
moronic neanderthal who would be a racist wherever he lived.

Quite!


As for the "No travellers" thing - that is rather different. There are
certainly considerable problems associated with traveller communities.
They tend to leave scenes of devastation in their wake when they leave
a district, and hugely inflated crime rates while they are present.
Whether they are Irish or not simply isn't an issue.

"They tend" - I'm afraid I don't agree. I don't mean to patronise here -
I'm sure you've checked your facts - but for anyone else who happens by
this thread - take a quick look at:

http://www.cre.gov.uk/gdpract/g_and_t_facts.html

Perhaps you could let me know your source please?

There is no tendency for travellers en bloc to *cause* problems. That
wasn't really my point. In my experience a "No travellers" sign is an
indication of bad attitudes within the pub.

On the other
hand, perhaps you are the one making the racial link with trouble...

Do you mean linking trouble with race? I don't think race is the cause
of any discrimination - it's people's attitudes about race. Now, where
they get those attitudes from is an interesting issue.

Rob

Where they come from is quite simple. People tend to identify
themselves with groups. Those groups may be their friends, colleagues
or nationality. It is hard to say there is something wrong with this -
it is just human nature. It is when the natural tendency to group
turns pathological that the problems start.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Spectacular Bookshelf Performance
 

On Sat, 07 May 2005 09:23:48 -0400, George M. Middius
wrote:



Don Pearce said:

Remember the movie "Watermelon Man"? Maybe you could sponsor a Limerick
Man project, in which a Limey goes undercover to see what it's like for
someone who comes from the other side of the Irish Sea.

Limey - 'scuse me? And you decided to snip the rest of my post, where
I mentioned some discrimination against me, but I guess that doesn't
suit your agenda.

It's only a discussion, not an agenda. I don't care if you and the Micks
want to slaughter each other over who gets to speak for "God". Your
business.


Speaking for "god" is at the heart of the problem. If only there was
one to speak for, perhaps he would provide some guidance for the
speakers.

As I said, my Irish friends are very happy here, and encounter no
discrimination.

I'll bet they've learned to pass. :-)

Seriously, though, I've never witnessed any discrimination against black
people at first-hand, yet I believe it's widespread. Maybe my lack of
direct knowledge is a result of my own discrimination in terms of the
people I hang with. I daresay you wouldn't want to be around people who
trash the Irish or any other group.


AH - now you hit the nub. DIscrimination is discrimination is
discrimination. There is no need to ask who is being discriminated
against - just fill in the blank with the stereotype of your choice.
For some reason, race is seen as somehow special. I don't agree.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Spectacular Bookshelf Performance
 

"Rob" wrote in message
...
Tim Martin wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
...

Direct and indirect discrimination of Irish communities ... *remains* an

institutionalised aspect of

British society.


Please feel free to explain. If I understand that's going on, I'll
write to
my MP and instruct him to put a stop to it.

Tim



Fair enough :-).

Take a quick look at http://www.cre.gov.uk/downloads/irinbrit.pdf -
plenty of documented evidence, although rather sketchy. Examples of
stereotypes - and that is what they are - can be found much closer to
home. In this very thread in fact.

Ah. OK; what that document contains is examples of individual racism, and
I'm sure the authors could have cited many, many more.

When you referred to anti-Irish racism being an "institionalized aspect of
British society", I mistook your meaning to refer to some kind of official
policies (which is why I thought I could instruct my MP to put a stop to
it.). I now realise that's not what you meant.

Incidentally, the document made one point I hadn't considered: that the
Irish in Britain can be divided into two groups, those who've been here a
long time and those who've arrived since the 1980s, with the latter group
being highly qualified. I assume the latter group are less likely to suffer
discrimination, but members of lists such as this may be more likely to
encounter Irishmen in this group than the other.

I'm not sure that the reaction to "travellers" in Britain is any different
to the reaction to "travellers" in Ireland ...

Tim