"Keith G" wrote in message
...
Clipped wooly bit ;-)

Secondly, it is not easy to get an audition of valve gear in the UK
without
going to an 'audio boutique' which are few and far between and where the
prices are sky-high in any case. Hence a lot of people, looking to get
into
valves are 'taking a flyer' and buying from eBay, the Net, mail order and
secondhand. This is the reason a lot of valvies (me included) have been
willing to invite people in and hear our own valve gear where they can get
a
good listen without any obligation to spend money.

Buying without audition is happening more and more in this neck of the woods
(Highlands) as its so easy to move it on via ebay if its not what you wanted
and maybe also make a bit of profit on it too if you're lucky.


This has been very successful for me and I have had a number of visits
that
have all been very pleasant and have actually ended up with one or two
people buying valve gear. At any rate, no-one has told me yet that they
didn't like valves!! (I have only had one instance where someone appears
to
have been a bit two-faced/indiscrete and that wasn't even a 'valve
auditioner'!)

Same here, I've had a few folk who've also taken up valves after listening
here.


However, having said all that, I for one am a becoming a bit reluctant to
recommend valves to all and sundry as:

1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular (as they have with
secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more expensive in charity
shops in the UK than it was a couple of years ago....), NOS valves will
disappear more quickly and the increasing popularity will encourage more
crap onto the market. (Offsetting this, of course, is that the same
popularity will ensure better continuity of supply generally....)

It could go the other way i.e. the manufacture of even better more reliable
valves - surely with modern technology the NOS valves could be copied and
improved upon?


2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear - normally beyond the scope
of
'box openers' if anything goes wrong. OK if a support structure
establishes
itself - I already know one UK valve amp builder who is doing nicely out
of
fettling cheap, new foreign amps or, as in the case of our own Fleetie,
you
are able to get the spanners out if anything goes tits-up which, of
course,
it can/probably will at some point.....

3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves (heat,
voltages and even the greater weight of valve amps) will result in some
divot getting badly hurt and a great raft of legislation swinging into
place
to control everything that will sweep away the good guys with the bad guys
like it's doing with everything else these days!

Many tube amps are weighty but don't forget SS amplifiers are also very
heavy, the big Krells, ML's etc. My own SS amp weighs in at 125 lbs.

The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for
various reasons mentioned above) but I gotta say finally that I have yet
to
hear a valve amp that didn't comprehensively **** all over most ss amps
I've
heard in terms of 'listenability' - ie where the 'music' counts more than
the 'sound quality'......

(My 2p only....)

Make that 4p Mike

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:49:18 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:39:29 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:


"StaffBull" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if
I
would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to
wait
for it to warm up every time I need it?

**ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use.

Hooey.

Not hooey - all electrical items (without a built in timer needing stanby
current) should be switched off if not in use, including amplifiers. (Ask
your insurers.....)

Insurers are concerned with fire risk, not capacitor failure. This is
a vexed question among audiophiles, for some mysterious reason, but
out in the real world of industrial electronics, most equipment is
kept permanently powered up. Anything with a valve in it (including
CRTs) shouldn't be permanently powered up, but that's virtually no
real-world equipment nowadays, aside from some radio transmitters.

So, the original poster should switch off his valve amp, but we
sensible folk can leave our class AB SS amps permanently switched on.


My Audiolab 8000P has been switched on for about eight years, and
works just fine. I don't leave the Krell switched on, because it's a
true class A design, and pulls 300 watts from the wall at idle!

Presumably the Krell doesn't suffer from being switched off then? Or does it
take that bit longer to strike an arc.....???

It's been working happily for about fifteen years, but it pretty much
*defines* overengineering! For instance, it's only rated at 50 watts
into 8 ohms, but it delivers 195 watts continuous into 4 ohms, both
channels driven. Basically, I'm just too mean to pay the bill for a
constant 300 watt drain! Naturally, the excess heat isn't a problem in
the UK.....................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:51:57 +0100, "Mike Gilmour"
wrote:


"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...

My Audiolab 8000P has been switched on for about eight years, and
works just fine. I don't leave the Krell switched on, because it's a
true class A design, and pulls 300 watts from the wall at idle!

Presumably the Krell doesn't suffer from being switched off then? Or does it
take that bit longer to strike an arc.....???

;-)

...with carbon rods.... for home cinema. ;-)

I wouldn't recommend Krell AV gear to anyone - overpriced and from a
company that now has a truly **** reputation for customer care. :-(
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
Hello Keith - I'm not sure about some of what you write he


OK, a quick reply - I'm on my way out. (In more ways than one! :-)


1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular
Prices for new production Russian, Czech and Chinese valves are pretty
static,
and there is a mountain of common valves out there (viz. guitar amp and
hifi
models like ECC***, 6L6GT, EL34 etc). Several mountains of less common
valves,
to the point that dealers just junk a lot of types to save rental on
keeping
them.


Facter life - as demand increases, so does prices. Jim Fish of Wilson Valves
said (all 'anecdotal' this - check me out by all means, but don't hold me to
it) that he doesn't handle KT88s any more as the prices has gone through the
roof and he does/didn't want to get involved.....


(as they have with secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more
expensive in charity shops in the UK than it was a couple of years
ago....)
?????? all my information is that common vinyl, e.g. classical orchestral,
is
rock bottom. Jazz and pop is different, since this is now 'collectors'
rather
than consumer. Just try and sell a collection of 1,000 classical LPs (I
have
such a collection to sell - please give me 10 times what they were worth a
couple of years ago!)


2 days ago, vinyl prices in Sue Ryder, Camden - Max Freakin' Bygraves was
£6.50 (that's actually a 100 times more than it used to be), Frank Sinatra
was/is £7.50 and a few Heavy Metal at these prices. A few Classical at
£1.98 - most Classical here were 3 or 4 for a quid a while back!

Local prices? - No idea, I stopped looking a year ago! (I get 98% of my
vinyl from eBay - you can't beat it!)


NOS valves will disappear more quickly
Remember that vast quantities are being hoarded by valve users. And
anyway, new
production (EH, JJ, EI, Svetlana etc) is getting better and better and new
types are being manufactured every year.


Yes, but I've been told 'when these xxx (Mullards, usually) are gone, I
doubt if I'll be able to get any more....' on numerous occasions! (Don't get
me wrong - I'll take a 12AX7EH in lieu of a Mullard any day!)


This year sees, for instance, the 7591
and 7868 from Eh and JJ, plus new and greatly improved Chinese 845s.
and the increasing popularity will encourage more crap onto the market
Well, so far, more good stuff has come onto the market including some very
fine
new valves as above.


Oh aye, it's not all bad news by a long chalk!


(Offsetting this, of course, is that the same popularity will ensure
better
continuity of supply generally....) Agreed

2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear Agreed
OK if a support structure establishes
itself There is a good support structure - less than before but maybe
something like Leica owners or classic car builders.


OK, but I mean in the context that it's no good getting a 'VFM/budget' valve
amp if you are going to get seen off having it fixed. (Also the cost of
getting them shipped about is not insignificant....)


3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves will
result
in a great raft of legislation swinging into place
Why wouldn't this have happened already in the century or so of valve use?
Why
would a government even bother with such a small issue these days?


Chatting with Len Gregory (The Cartridge Man) a year or two back, he was
having a bit of a rant about VAT/Maggie Thatcher and some legislation that
says (or will say?) that any appliance with a mains lead must be capable of
being lifted by that lead. He said 'not likely with a valve amp. is it?' I
said that's easy - just use kettle leads! (Placated him a bit ;-) Btw, I
asked him if he used valve amps - he said 'yes, of course, nothing else!'
like I was daft for asking..... :-)


I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities,


That's the point, done right we don't have to be. Plenty of people believe
the valve (OK, triode then... ;-) to be the ultimate 'audio amplifier'
(analogue OR digital) so why should it ever disappear? (What beats a pair of
scissors for cutting stuff, eh??)


but the sound
of valves lives on - musicians love them and use them, and a number of
musical
listeners, as you say, find they come closest to the sound they find
represents
the "musical experience".


Yep.


I think digital amps are coming up fast and I'd see
the future there rather than in analogue SS. Some digital amps sound
rather
fine. But valves will live on simply because of the investment people have
made
in them. I'd bet that when valve equipment becomes rare there will still
be a
mountain of unused valves out there. Andy


Not as big as the pile of obsolete PCBs.......

;-)

"Mike Gilmour" wrote


OK, a lightning response here also:


Buying without audition is happening more and more in this neck of the
woods
(Highlands) as its so easy to move it on via ebay if its not what you
wanted
and maybe also make a bit of profit on it too if you're lucky.


*Exactamento*



Same here, I've had a few folk who've also taken up valves after listening
here.


I've a very nice chap (Iraqi/Turkish descent living in Brussels) ask me a
string questions about valves atm - Jeez, if you think *we're* hard done by
for valve gear and retail outlets!!!



It could go the other way i.e. the manufacture of even better more
reliable
valves - surely with modern technology the NOS valves could be copied and
improved upon?


Absolutely, but of little interest to the *real* Classic Valve Boys!! ;-)


Many tube amps are weighty but don't forget SS amplifiers are also very
heavy, the big Krells, ML's etc. My own SS amp weighs in at 125 lbs.


I'd bet that most people being tempted by 'budget' valve amps aren't coming
from ss behemoths (some of which are real amps and can sound damn near as
good as valves anyway) but from the ****e little 'flyaway' slices of brushed
aluminium....



The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing
(for
various reasons mentioned above) but I gotta say finally that I have yet
to
hear a valve amp that didn't comprehensively **** all over most ss amps
I've
heard in terms of 'listenability' - ie where the 'music' counts more
than
the 'sound quality'......

(My 2p only....)

Make that 4p Mike


(It'll take all night to make the price of a pint at this rate!! :-)

as demand increases, so does prices
I don't know if demand is increasing - and remember that a big slice of the
market is group gear - and in any case there are just a few 'rarities' like Syl
6SN7s, Amperex ECC83s and Mullard EL34s that are expensive, and those have
perfectly good cheap substitutes. People like Jim who spent their lives in
valve gear don't like selling at silly prices - goes against their principles.

I'd bet that when valve equipment becomes rare there will still be a
mountain of unused valves out there
Not as big as the pile of obsolete PCBs.......
LOL!
Mind, Max Bygraves at £6.50. I need to talk this through with my therapist.


=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

Andy Evans wrote:

Mind, Max Bygraves at £6.50. I need to talk this through with my
therapist.

Why, are you worried that you might buy it?


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
Anything with a valve in it (including CRTs) shouldn't be permanently
powered up,

It's not so very long ago that all broadcasting equipment was valve, and
plenty was left powered up 24/7. Indeed, a power failure could result in
lots of replacements after it was resumed.
But that equipment was designed for this task - I'm not convinced el
cheapo valve amps are.

--
*The most common name in the world is Mohammed *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Keith G wrote:
Firstly, as the OP is in N Wales I think you should be a little less
sheepish, ram your point home a bit harder and qualify your question thus:
'Tell my why ewe think this is a good idea, if ewe don't hear the amp first
ewe could get the wool pulled over your eyes and someone will fleece ewe...'

(Shear common sense for an Ozzie, I would'a thought...??)


uhm, no ... I think the Kiwis would know more about sheep ...

:P



The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for
^^^^^^

OI!!! I would be careful with using that kind of language ...

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
as demand increases, so does prices
I don't know if demand is increasing


Apparently it is and Svetlana want their 'name' back to meet the increased
demand??? (Just gossip - I can't claim that as *fact*....)


- and remember that a big slice of the
market is group gear - and in any case there are just a few 'rarities'
like Syl
6SN7s, Amperex ECC83s and Mullard EL34s that are expensive, and those have
perfectly good cheap substitutes. People like Jim who spent their lives in
valve gear don't like selling at silly prices - goes against their
principles.


Quite. Also his prices for Mullard ECC83 remains constant irrespective of
his stock levels. Also, also he won't send them 'over the water' for much
more money although it would be easy to do and if he gets wind of people
profiteering on valves he has let them have at fair prices (on eBay or
whatever) he 'blacks' them for life....!!


Mind, Max Bygraves at £6.50. I need to talk this through with my
therapist.


At least there was a quid premium on Frankie!

:-)