Andy Evans wrote:
This sort of post never fails to amaze me - like ss kit *doesn't* distort
the signal FFS!!!

Hang on here, Keith - ss kit measures .00000000001% distortion because it's
sonically transparent. Never mind what it sounds like. And anyway, most people
use ss kit so it must be better. Who are we to remain unconvinced by such
arguments.


yup, what he said, except the "most people use it so it must be better" bit ...

Keith G wrote:

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...


If valves are used for musical *production*, then the distortion forms
part of the art (which is fine, since musicians are making new music)

However, for musical *reproduction*, the valves would distort the signal
being reproduced, and taken to its extreme, a valve amp would then act
as a signal processor, wouldn't it?

This sort of post never fails to amaze me - like ss kit *doesn't* distort
the signal FFS!!!


well, it was a sweeping generalisation. But if I was a betting man, I would
wager that a similarly priced SS amp would have less distortion than a valve amp.

Keith, I'm not taking a dig at valve preferences, since there are no right or
wrong preferences.

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
**After you replace ALL the electrolytic caps

What electrolytic caps? Only polypropylene and teflons in my valve amp.

**Stewart's Audiolab uses electrolytics.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

In article , Trevor Wilson wrote:
... Having said that, it is likely that
your Krell probably uses 105oC rated, computer grade main filter caps
(100,000 hours). I don't know about all the other caps, though. Your
Audiolab uses bog-standard, 85oC rated, 10,000 hour caps. How long is 8
years, again?

To be fair, however, at 65 C ambient that 10,000 hours becomes about
40,000 hours (circa 4.5 years) for an 85 C rated electrolytic. At 60 C
it's up to about 56,000 hours (circa 6.5 years). Even that's too hot
to touch and I sincerely hope idling temperature inside a reasonable
non-class-A power amplifier isn't hotter than that.

I only have a sample of two to test but neither exceeds comfortable
external touching threshold at idle (or even in moderate use) so I am
fairly sure the internal idle temperature will not exceed 60 C [1].

Of course my understanding is that the "failure" mechanism is a gradual
reduction in capacitance with time. For unregulated PSUs (i.e. for my
amps) the circuit has to cope with significant ripple voltage anyway,
so the degradation should, by design, not be great.

[1] From measurement: at an ambient of 28 C the amp I am currently
listening through does not exceed 44 C at the hottest external part
of the metal casework and heatsink. Making reasonable allowances
for the thermal conductivity from the inside I doubt the internal
ambient exceeds 60 C.

--
John Phillips

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:46:23 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

**The term: "Pom", is a one of endearment. It should not be taken as an
offensive term. "Pommy *******" is also a term of great endearment. As
in:

"Will ya have another beer, you Pommy *******?"

The term: "Whinging Pom" is a very severe insult.

The term: "Tight arsed Scot", is, like the term: "Miserable Scot", merely
a
perfectly accurate observation and cannot possibly be taken as terms
which
are offensive.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au


Hee hee - I like that.

Actually all insults work strictly on the basis that they are true -
not that they are insulting per se.

**Fair point. In truth, I have never actually met a whinging Pom. And I have
met quite a few. I've met a few high-spirited young Pommies on holiday. They
acted pretty much how I would expect young Aussies to act when in the UK
(though I understand Aussies are in high demand for casual work in the UK).


I remember once an Aussie being introduced to a few of us, and this
bloke was the most whingeing ******* who ever walked the earth.
Everything was better in Australia. Anyway, sometime during the
evening, somebody - well fed up - just said to him "you're an
Australian, aren't you?". That did it - he went red and stormed out.
I've no doubt he is even now back home telling everybody about this
pommy rudeness.

**There are plenty of arseholes, who call themselves Aussies. Everything is
not better in Australia. Just different.


So insults can't be given - only accepted.

**Touché.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:47:10 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Mike Gilmour" wrote

Many tube amps are weighty but don't forget SS amplifiers are also
very
heavy, the big Krells, ML's etc. My own SS amp weighs in at 125 lbs.

I'd bet that most people being tempted by 'budget' valve amps aren't
coming
from ss behemoths (some of which are real amps and can sound damn near
as
good as valves anyway) but from the ****e little 'flyaway' slices of
brushed
aluminium....

I think you have that the wrong way round. A few select valve amps are
real amps, and can sound damn near as good as most SS amps........


Fine - a different opinion based on a different preferences based on a
different credo....

**I suggest you do what I did: Subject yourself to a blind test, between two
or three highly regarded amplifiers. I chose two SS amps and one tube amp.
Through a modest load, the tube amp was impossible to choose from the better
of the SS amps. The valve amp was an Audio Research VT100 and, IMO, was the
most accurate valve amp I have ever heard (and tested). Most other valve
amps are trivially easy to pick, because they distort far too much.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 11:19:27 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

Actually all insults work strictly on the basis that they are true -
not that they are insulting per se.

**Fair point. In truth, I have never actually met a whinging Pom. And I have
met quite a few. I've met a few high-spirited young Pommies on holiday. They
acted pretty much how I would expect young Aussies to act when in the UK
(though I understand Aussies are in high demand for casual work in the UK).


I remember once an Aussie being introduced to a few of us, and this
bloke was the most whingeing ******* who ever walked the earth.
Everything was better in Australia. Anyway, sometime during the
evening, somebody - well fed up - just said to him "you're an
Australian, aren't you?". That did it - he went red and stormed out.
I've no doubt he is even now back home telling everybody about this
pommy rudeness.

**There are plenty of arseholes, who call themselves Aussies. Everything is
not better in Australia. Just different.


So insults can't be given - only accepted.

**Touché.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au


I suspect that for both countries, our main exposure to people from
the other is in the form of people of a certain age and demeanour -
mid twenties and plenty of exploring spirit. Mostly they are great,
some have a chip. That's how it goes.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

In article , Trevor Wilson
writes

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
**After you replace ALL the electrolytic caps

What electrolytic caps? Only polypropylene and teflons in my valve amp.

**Stewart's Audiolab uses electrolytics.



Yes so does mine, and when its around 10 years young I'll put it on the
bench and change them, not a difficult job. In the meantime it measures
as it did new, and after 10 years or thereabouts I do expect it will be
in need of some attention.

Like the old QUAD33/303 that I've re-capped, works a treat and measures
to spec and that's now some 33 years old so not bad going, and I expect
it'll last many more years yet, and it does look every bit as good as it
did when new

And drives the wife's chinky built QUAD 11L's fine, pity they weren't
built in the UK, but I suppose we wont work for as little money as they
do....
--
Tony Sayer

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


**And I have yet to hear a CHEAP valve amp which can compete with a
similarly priced, decently engineered SS one. Cheap valve amps are just
not
worth bothering with. Their output transformers are pitifully
inadequate.
Amongst other things. OTOH, a REALLY GOOD valve amp sounds (and,
incidentally, measures) almost indistinguishable from a really good SS
amp.


On paper I would agree with you, but I suspect the reality for many people
is that cheap valve amps actually *do* provide the type of sound the
purchaser is looking for.

**Perhaps. The Empreror's New Clothes syndrome is not unknown in this area.
A client dumped an old pair of 3 Watt valve amps in for me to fix. Two of
the four output trannies were shot and all the caps and resistors, along
with a bunch of the tubes had to be replaced. The quote for repair was
around AUS$700.00. I offered him an alternative, for around AUS$200.00,
which if he was unhappy, I would gladly rebuild his amp to new spec and give
him the 200 Bucks back (whilst charging him the 700 Smackers, of course).
Win-win.

He accepted by cheap alternative. I dutifully repaired his amp and returned
it. he LOVED it. "it sounds better than it ever has." he said. Cool,
everyone's happy.

My repair involved the fitting of 4 SS power amp ICs, along with some HF and
LF filtering, to simulate typical tube frwquency responses.

I never told him what I had done.

My argument is that it *seems* they are more
likely to play up and that people buying them should be aware of this -
not
a problem if the buyer has the skills to sort them out, or there is
support
readily available at reasonable prices. (I have to say it appears at least
some of the eBay sellers of cheap amps appear to be ready and willing to
help when necessary....??)

Let's sum this up with an analogy:

You want a car to get about. You got two choices - save up for a long time
to buy a 'respected, reliable' car or you buy summat cheap or secondhand
and
*expect* to have to get the spanners out sooner or later. It's that simple
and they way I view the recent influx of cheap amps. You'll never fettle
an
old banger into a Bentley but at least it'll whizz around (keeping you dry
when it rains) for most of the time and it's quite likely to be a lot of
fun!

**Your analogy is faulty. Cheap Chinese valve amps are more expensive than
good quality, new SS amps (Rotel, Arcam, et al). Those pesky output
transformers ensure that valve amps will ALWAYS cost more than approximately
equivalent SS amps.


(I would add also that I don't think these cheap amps are quite as bad as
some would have us believe - as usual, I don't think most of the
'knockers'
have ever heard one!)

**I have. I can hear their problems. They distort. They have no place in hi
fi. Some look mighty purty though.



That should set some alarm bells ringing for those who value reason and
common sense above hyperbole.


But who are not the people buying cheap valve amps, I suspect.....

**Correctomundo.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor Wilson
writes

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
**After you replace ALL the electrolytic caps

What electrolytic caps? Only polypropylene and teflons in my valve amp.

**Stewart's Audiolab uses electrolytics.



Yes so does mine, and when its around 10 years young I'll put it on the
bench and change them, not a difficult job. In the meantime it measures
as it did new, and after 10 years or thereabouts I do expect it will be
in need of some attention.

**And if you switch it on and off, as required, it should last longer. Much
longer.


Like the old QUAD33/303 that I've re-capped, works a treat and measures
to spec and that's now some 33 years old so not bad going, and I expect
it'll last many more years yet, and it does look every bit as good as it
did when new

**My bench amp is a 1968 model Marantz Model Eighteen receiver. I switch it
on and off as required. It has been used 6 days a week, since I purchased it
in 1975. Not only are all the electros in good order (well, they were about
5 years ago, when I,lifted the lid), the only two problems I have
experienced a
* The CRO tube failed (normal).
* I smoked the output devices, whilst driving a faulty loudspeaker, for
about an hour one day.


And drives the wife's chinky built QUAD 11L's fine, pity they weren't
built in the UK, but I suppose we wont work for as little money as they
do....

**No one does.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au