Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


Other than 'signal breakup' when the volume's wicked up too hard in
certain circumstamces, what TF does this 'distortion' actually sound
like?? What should I be looking for?? Perhaps if I knew what it was I
could develop a loathing for it also.....??? :-)

**It's not that difficult. Here's how you do it:

1) Find an amplifier which has exemplary specifications (posted earlier
by me).
2) Compare the above-mentioned amplifier in a double blind test.
3) If you can hear a difference, one amplifier is distorting.


(Now, why do I also know that I'm not going to get an answer to this
that doesn't sound like it's coming from a raving looney?)

**Your attempts at projection, is duly noted.


As is your crappy grammar...

**Thank you for being so rude. Do you REALLY want to play that game?


OK, a quick apology for that, then - I didn't mean to 'wound' you! (Just a
bit of 'jab/counter jab' argy bargy.... ;-)

**Hmmm. OK. I'll let it drop.



Your writing is not above reproach, you know?


Tell me about it! :-)

(Too much ****ing bad language for a start!! :-)



Let's get real here, my question was serious.

**As was my answer.


Forget all this feckin 'go out and get an amp with exemplary spec and
start sodding around with DBTs' ********. What I want to know is how do
you tell that *that* amp *there* is distorting *right now*???

**Asked and answered.

No!

**Yes.


That's where it all hangs. We get battered to fekkin' death in here by
people hurling the phrase 'audible distortion' about like it glows in the
dark!! (Ooop, possibly a bad simile - we'll see how it goes....) What I
want to know is, without setting up some costly pseudoscientific
experiment up, how can Joe Ordinaire tell when an amp is 'audibly
distorting'???

**Asked and answered.


(I'm further making the point that if he don't know, then it don't bloody
matter much, does it??)

**To him? Perhaps not. However, those who listen to distroting amps, are
rather like those blissfully ignorant Bose listeners - they know no better
and keep their head buried in the sand. Sure, Bose sounds better than
nothing, but that is about it.




(What one or two of you 'professional types' seem to forget this is a
hobbyist group currently threadbare due to all the scary 'technobabble'
that's keeping them out of here!!)

**That is an opinion you get to have.


No, I see it all the time - someone looks in and gets slapped off the lot
in double quick time if he don't look like he's gonna grease up and get in
line....

(Last one was Iain Churches - went up like a skyrocket and burned out real
quick. I saw that coming from Day 01...!!! ;-)

**That is not the way I see it. People come here for a variety of reasons.
These include:
* A genuine attempt to gain knowledge.
* A genuine attempt to impart knowledge.
* To sell something.
* To buy something.
* To engage in casual banter with like-minded individuals.
* To gain some kind of ego trip, by employing arguments to win over another.
* A combination of the above.
* Other stuff, not listed.

If a person approaches with genuine questions, he/she is likely to be
received and treated fairly. If that person approaches with a pre-conceived
set of notions, but with no way of logically backing those notions, he/she
will be shot down in flames.




'Cos the point is, if you have to go and buy a *good* amp (when we are
told all ss amps over £300 qualify as 'good' ??)

**I never said anything of the kind. Moreover, I don't beleive that
anyone ever said anything like that.


Oh yes they did - it wuz Pinkypoof.

**Cite please.



If you feel that it has been said, then please provide a suitable cite. I
have measured some truly bad (SS) amps, which cost considerably more than
300 Squid.


Again with the hints and allegations - fekkin' name one. (Whisper it if
you're scared of getting a law suit...!!!)

**Not me. See my list below. I'll begin assembling a comprehensive list, as
time allows.




to check out the amp you already
have, then the whole point of the exercise is a teensy weensy little bit
lost innit??

**Nope. The FIRST thing to do, in ensure that the prospective amp meets
my suggested list of specs. That is a good start.


Read what it says on the box, eh? :-)

**You'll need a good deal more than that. Most manufacturers do not publish
all the specs I listed. They're much too hard to acheive.




- Might as well buy an amp that we're *told* is good (by whom -
bloke in shop? - kinda puts everyone back at Sq. 01 a bit, dunnit??) and
toss the one we've got!!!???

**No need to believe the bloke in the shop.


Well, you will always easily find out what they're overstocked with....

**BINGO!




Otherwise, if we don't *know* it's distorting (until your suggested
comparison is made) it doesn't seem to matter too much does it??

**Presumably, the UK gummint has put in place some kind of consumer
protection laws, which ensure that manufacturers cannot tell fibs about
their amps? Use those laws. If an amp does not meet it's published specs,
then use those laws to force change.


See what I'm saying???

**I do, but do you see what I am saying?


I see my point being missed....

**I see your point, very clearly.




Explanation: I've got a number of different amps here. I like them all,
I do not *detect* any distortion with any of them but it's almost a
certainty they will have different distortion characteristics. If I
don't *notice* it, then it don't sodding matter do it??

**Do any of the amps meet, or exceed, my suggested list of specs?


Well, I'm damned if I know - I suppose I could check, but it's never
dawned on me to do this - I *don't* detect any frickin' distortion!!!

**Compared to a 'perfect' amp?




Another thing - one question you won't get an answer to round here is:
Name an amp which is currently available new from UK audio shops which
can not be considered 'good' - ie is a *bad* amp....???

**Any Audio Note product.

OK, I might be able to do some checking there - geezer round the corner
has an AN pre.

**I did say AMP. It is a pretty trivial exercise to build a preamp with no
audible flaws (except S/N). Even Audio Note can probably do it. Any Audio
Note POWER AMP.



Any sub-1000 Squid home cinema (why do Americans insist on calling it:
Home Theatre?) amplifier. In fact, probably any Home Cinema amp, but I
have yet to test them all. Certainly, none of the cheapies meets all my
suggested criteria.


In that case, I think I can safely say your criteria are pretty
meaningless to an end user like me. We have a ****-cheap Sony AV amp and
it's a little blinder (Sony STR-DE485E AV Receiver if you want to check).

**I know it well. If it was a little heavier, it would make a nice anchor
for my neighbour's boat. As a piece of audio equipment, it sucks.

Sounds in the
many movies we watch (almost every night - Swim is waiting as I type!) are
beautifully presented into a pair of truly excellent speakers (Ruark
Paladins*) and we get the frickin' lot - from tinkly wind chimes in the
far distance to the plane going over without warning in Northfork that
nearly filled my knickers, first time I heard it!

**Maybe so, but you wouldn't let actual music to be played through it, would
you?


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale DiamondII's
 

Patrick Turner wrote:

snip technical, power, wattage, THD stuff


Maybe they measure well, these SS amps, but I get a stream of customers
fed up with the raucous sonic efforts of the SS amps they spent so much on.

raucous sonic efforts? Come on, name some of those amps.


Or they say the SS amp is clincal and cold,

maybe they can't handle the truth ...
(btw, the only SS amps I recall being described as clinical and cold by
the audio press are the old Audiolab and the newer Arcam amps)


and freezes out the natural warmth
of massed strings and voices,

as opposed to adding some warmth?


and removes the leading edges off the brass.

Uhm, "removes leading edges" sounds like making the music all pinky and
rosy to me ...

snip class A / class C bias stuff

Not all SS amps are plain crook, but enough are to give SS a bad name.
One guy wanted to trade in his SS preamp full of oppamps for the tube pre

which SS preamp would that be? And how can it sound crook?


I had made after he had a listen.
I gently refused, because how would I sell this horror after folks auditioned
the tube pre?

well it would make a good "cold, clinical" versus "warm, rosy"
comparison, wouldn't it?

He'd spent $3,000 on SS pre amd power amps, but after a year he could stand it
no longer,
and went to all tubes, how's that for 22 yr old ears?


that would be his preference.

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


**Your attempts at projection, is duly noted.


As is your crappy grammar...

**Thank you for being so rude. Do you REALLY want to play that game?


OK, a quick apology for that, then - I didn't mean to 'wound' you! (Just
a bit of 'jab/counter jab' argy bargy.... ;-)

**Hmmm. OK. I'll let it drop.


You will? That's a relief!! :-)

Hang on on though, I didn't mean to spoil your fun - go ahead if you had
something planned. Apology withdrawn.....

(Prick....)


That's where it all hangs. We get battered to fekkin' death in here by
people hurling the phrase 'audible distortion' about like it glows in the
dark!! (Ooop, possibly a bad simile - we'll see how it goes....) What I
want to know is, without setting up some costly pseudoscientific
experiment up, how can Joe Ordinaire tell when an amp is 'audibly
distorting'???

**Asked and answered.


Nope. Ducked and dived again. You have no answer.



(I'm further making the point that if he don't know, then it don't bloody
matter much, does it??)

**To him? Perhaps not. However, those who listen to distroting amps, are
rather like those blissfully ignorant Bose listeners - they know no better
and keep their head buried in the sand. Sure, Bose sounds better than
nothing, but that is about it.


Uh oh. I've got a row of orange lights on my 'Nutter Alert Panel' now.....


**That is not the way I see it. People come here for a variety of reasons.
These include:
* A genuine attempt to gain knowledge.
* A genuine attempt to impart knowledge.
* To sell something.
* To buy something.
* To engage in casual banter with like-minded individuals.
* To gain some kind of ego trip, by employing arguments to win over
another.
* A combination of the above.
* Other stuff, not listed.


Other stuff not listed, eh??? Hmmm...???

(Those orange lights have just turned red!!)



If a person approaches with genuine questions, he/she is likely to be
received and treated fairly. If that person approaches with a
pre-conceived set of notions, but with no way of logically backing those
notions, he/she will be shot down in flames.


Really? That's sounds pretty scary.

Tell you what me old china - do yourself a favour here and consider that
Usenet, the Web etc. has moved way beyond the realm of spotty geekboys using
an after hours school computer....



'Cos the point is, if you have to go and buy a *good* amp (when we are
told all ss amps over £300 qualify as 'good' ??)

**I never said anything of the kind. Moreover, I don't beleive that
anyone ever said anything like that.


Oh yes they did - it wuz Pinkypoof.

**Cite please.


Sorry, you'll have to find it yourself.



feel that it has been said, then please provide a suitable cite. I
have measured some truly bad (SS) amps, which cost considerably more
than 300 Squid.


Again with the hints and allegations - fekkin' name one. (Whisper it if
you're scared of getting a law suit...!!!)

**Not me. See my list below. I'll begin assembling a comprehensive list,
as time allows.


Ooh, **** me - don't bother. I'm not that interested....

(Jeez, there's a Klaxon going off now.....!!!)






to check out the amp you already
have, then the whole point of the exercise is a teensy weensy little
bit lost innit??

**Nope. The FIRST thing to do, in ensure that the prospective amp meets
my suggested list of specs. That is a good start.


Read what it says on the box, eh? :-)

**You'll need a good deal more than that. Most manufacturers do not
publish all the specs I listed. They're much too hard to acheive.

????

OK, that's it. That's enough. That'll do me...

My Nutter Alert Panel's belching smoke now! Time I left you to it, I think!

Have a good day/night whatever it is! (Can you actually see outside..?? :-)


(Wot a fekkin' idiot.....!!!)

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:56:06 +0000, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Ian Molton wrote:

Well if you want adjustable controlls, I'd suggest a DSP these days.

If you just want 'valve sound' applied to everything, simply use a
crappy valve amp and quit worrying about hi fi.

Yes, fine, I will do thanks, but are you not interested that there is a
consistant number of people who are reporting the same preference.

Why would we? We *know* why valve amps sound the way they do, it's not
any kind of mystery. You prefer that sound, I don't, end of story.

What if the effect was real, and not dependent on what you describe as
the "undesirable" effects of a valve amp, what if the percieved
improvements were possible without affecting your transparency ?

What if the Moon really is made of green cheese?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 19:08:33 +0000, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Ian Molton wrote:
Nick Gorham wrote:

Here we go again, the effect I am considering is not a warm and rosy
one, if thats the effect you think I am talking about then you are
missing the point all together.


Ok so what would you describe the effect as? (subjective language is OK
here but may not convey much meaning).

Ok, quick try before going home.

The effect I feel that valve amplifers seem to convey, is a greator
sense of reality, the sound seems to convey the effect of the instrument
or voice actually existing in a space, and I seem to percieve of it as
actually being produced by a real object, not just a analog of one.

There seems to be a 3d depth to the sound, (I tend to use visual
descriptions of sound anyway, I think thats just how my head is wired)
but the sound has more of a actual shape, not just the music as a whole,
but the individual parts being played that makes up the music.

But not in a sense of disecting the sound, more allowing each part to
exist on its own, in its own frame of reference, but still each taking
part in the overall "dance".

The equivilant via solid state, is much less vivid, more of a copy of
the performance, and while I am aware of the things that SS does
better/differently to the sound (esp the bass), that doesn't to my ears
make up for the something that seems to be lacking.

Very subjective, and not that well described. I will try and think more
on trying to put what I mean down in words.

Of course this could just be me, and everyone else who I am claming to
have the same result, could think I am taking rubbish.

No, that's a standard report, and it's largely down to that subtle
trace of microphonic reverberation you get with most valve amps.

I should say that this is not a effect that every valve amplifier I have
heard has had to the same amount, its normally much less obvious in push
pull designed, Though the Amity is one PP amp that does have that effect
for my ears.

Before this is taken to mean its just SE 2nd harmonic thats doing it, I
have heard several commercial SE amps that just miss the point as well,
It seems to be most obvious in SE amps that are running well within
their power output, think 211 or 845 producing at most a watt or 2, or
maybe a 212 producing 5 watt's. But also at very low levels smaller amps
can do it as well, as the 6em7 I had did, but only at very low levels.

The 2nd harmonic warms up the sound, which is another common report,
usually disguised by claims that SS amps are 'cold'. By comparison,
they are - but so is the input signal.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:56:49 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

'Cos the point is, if you have to go and buy a *good* amp (when we are
told all ss amps over £300 qualify as 'good' ??)

**I never said anything of the kind. Moreover, I don't beleive that anyone
ever said anything like that.

Oh yes they did - it wuz Pinkypoof.

More typical ******** from the hairy-arsed ex-trucker. I never said
any such thing, indeed I'll point you to Tim de Paravicini's
solid-state version of his Yoshino, which is a *very* bad amp, and
costs lots more than £300.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 01:26:16 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:
(why do Americans insist on calling it: Home
Theatre?)

From Movie Theatre.

And they don't, they call it Home Theater. :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale DiamondII's
 

Keith G wrote:

Forget all this feckin 'go out and get an amp with exemplary spec and start
sodding around with DBTs' ********. What I want to know is how do you tell
that *that* amp *there* is distorting *right now*???

You dont, unless its really obvious. you'd need to measure it.

If you want to buy an amp thats free from audible distortion, you would
audition many until you found a pair you couldnt tell apart. Odds are
that no two (audibly) distorting amps will ever sound completely identical.

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

In article , Nick Gorham
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:


Well, my personal view is that if we *can* identify 'alterations' that
aid perception then be can then exploit them without having to rely
upon an amplifier to do so on an almost 'accidental' basis as a
byproduct of some unspecifiable process.
[snip]

Yes, thats very much my position, if we could

1. Accept that something is happening that causes what people report as
a better experience when using certain amps

I think that bit is reasonably well established. :-)

2. Identify just what the difference is that causes that altered
experence

This is where the problem starts... ;- Mainly, I think, because people
often end up using the same words, but different languages. This then
impedes attempts to investigate in a systematic manner.

3. Prove that the difference can be seen to have that effect when
applied, and not when removed

Not quite sure about "proved" here. One of those words I am wary of in a
scientific context. I'd say something like "carry out tests whose results
might either support or show unreliable a given hypothesis". Thus allow us
to see what ideas may be reliable, and what ones may not.

Then we would have advanced quite a way. However I do think that to
assume (which I am not suggesting you are Jim) that this is necessarly a
thing that can be applied to a particular type of amp to produce the
desired effect is maybe false.

It could be something that

1.
[snip choices to avoid repeating them]

And other combinations that I haven't bothered to note. The point I am
making is that it may not be so simple as a "effect block" that could be
added to any "transparent" amplifier.

I would agree. However what we can *try* to do is employ the usual
'scientific method'. This means trying to devise and carry out tests and
measurements that seek to test ideas that one process or another are
involved. So far as possible, controlling other factors whilst doing so.

FWIW A few years ago I noticed some of the newer research on the physiology
of human hearing and was surprised/fascinated to find all the complex
nonlinear active processes it involves on a *physical* level. These mean
the response may not be well-described by the usual assumptions about
linear superposition, etc. Hence the effects of things like distortion
and/or changes in the frequency response with amplitude in terms of
perception may be unexpected. Since then, I have formed a suspicion that
this may go some way to explaining some of the things that those who prefer
valves and/or vinyl report. However it is very difficult to go beyond a
suspicion for the various reasons we have been discussing. The 'language'
people use is so ill-defined, contested, and ambiguous, and leads to heated
arguments divorced from a careful consideration.

As you may have noticed, I am not really interested in 'heated argument'. I
am, however, interested in trying to understand these matters. By natural I
tend to become interested in what I may not understand. Learning starts
with realising you don't already understand something. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

In article , Nick Gorham
wrote:
Ian Molton wrote:


The point I am making is that it may not be so simple as a "effect
block" that could be added to any "transparent" amplifier.


Why would adding an 'effect block' not allow an otherwise transparent
system to reproduce the effect?

I don't know, it may, I just said (and again please read what I wrote,
and note that I am not jumping to your assumptions) it may not be so
simple. Again it may. So that begs the question, can you tell me how to
construct such a block?

The difficulty here is that we have no well-founded theory or set of
observations that allow us to define the required 'effect' in functional
terms we could consider implimenting in engineering. Until we do, it
remains hard to say what might or might not be buildable to achive the
(ill-defined) result.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html