Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


Other than 'signal breakup' when the volume's wicked up too hard in
certain circumstamces, what TF does this 'distortion' actually sound
like?? What should I be looking for?? Perhaps if I knew what it was I
could develop a loathing for it also.....??? :-)

**It's not that difficult. Here's how you do it:

1) Find an amplifier which has exemplary specifications (posted earlier by
me).
2) Compare the above-mentioned amplifier in a double blind test.
3) If you can hear a difference, one amplifier is distorting.


(Now, why do I also know that I'm not going to get an answer to this that
doesn't sound like it's coming from a raving looney?)

**Your attempts at projection, is duly noted.


As is your crappy grammar...


Let's get real here, my question was serious.

Forget all this feckin 'go out and get an amp with exemplary spec and start
sodding around with DBTs' ********. What I want to know is how do you tell
that *that* amp *there* is distorting *right now*???

(What one or two of you 'professional types' seem to forget this is a
hobbyist group currently threadbare due to all the scary 'technobabble'
that's keeping them out of here!!)

'Cos the point is, if you have to go and buy a *good* amp (when we are told
all ss amps over £300 qualify as 'good' ??) to check out the amp you already
have, then the whole point of the exercise is a teensy weensy little bit
lost innit?? - Might as well buy an amp that we're *told* is good (by whom -
bloke in shop? - kinda puts everyone back at Sq. 01 a bit, dunnit??) and
toss the one we've got!!!???

Otherwise, if we don't *know* it's distorting (until your suggested
comparison is made) it doesn't seem to matter too much does it??

See what I'm saying???

Explanation: I've got a number of different amps here. I like them all, I do
not *detect* any distortion with any of them but it's almost a certainty
they will have different distortion characteristics. If I don't *notice* it,
then it don't sodding matter do it??

Another thing - one question you won't get an answer to round here is: Name
an amp which is currently available new from UK audio shops which can not be
considered 'good' - ie is a *bad* amp....???

;-)

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


That's odd because the Group's Resident Expert And Teacher On Nearly
Everything (GREAT ONE) tells us that 'musos' are notorious for having
****ty hifi...???

('musos' - just dripping with respect and admiration, ain't it? ;-)

**Not an unusual occurence. I once went to Australia's foremost
conductor's home, to demonstrate some equipment. It took me exactly 3
seconds to determine that one of his speakers was wired out of phase.


Hmm, what's this an 'underarm googlie'?? - Australia, 'conductor', out of
phase??? :-)


I asked if he was happy with his present system and he told me that he
was, but felt that it was time for him to consider new equipment.


I'm not going there.....


Another muso friend of mine plays in the first violins of the Sydney
Symphony Orchestra. He turns the tone controls all the way up, all the
time. He is a great muso, but has no idea about listening to a fine
reproduction system.


Another one - 'fine reproduction system' with Tone Controls ??? (Bit 70s
innit??)

:-)

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


Other than 'signal breakup' when the volume's wicked up too hard in
certain circumstamces, what TF does this 'distortion' actually sound
like?? What should I be looking for?? Perhaps if I knew what it was I
could develop a loathing for it also.....??? :-)

**It's not that difficult. Here's how you do it:

1) Find an amplifier which has exemplary specifications (posted earlier
by me).
2) Compare the above-mentioned amplifier in a double blind test.
3) If you can hear a difference, one amplifier is distorting.


(Now, why do I also know that I'm not going to get an answer to this
that doesn't sound like it's coming from a raving looney?)

**Your attempts at projection, is duly noted.


As is your crappy grammar...

**Thank you for being so rude. Do you REALLY want to play that game? Your
writing is not above reproach, you know?



Let's get real here, my question was serious.

**As was my answer.


Forget all this feckin 'go out and get an amp with exemplary spec and
start sodding around with DBTs' ********. What I want to know is how do
you tell that *that* amp *there* is distorting *right now*???

**Asked and answered.


(What one or two of you 'professional types' seem to forget this is a
hobbyist group currently threadbare due to all the scary 'technobabble'
that's keeping them out of here!!)

**That is an opinion you get to have.


'Cos the point is, if you have to go and buy a *good* amp (when we are
told all ss amps over £300 qualify as 'good' ??)

**I never said anything of the kind. Moreover, I don't beleive that anyone
ever said anything like that. If you feel that it has been said, then please
provide a suitable cite. I have measured some truly bad (SS) amps, which
cost considerably more than 300 Squid.


to check out the amp you already
have, then the whole point of the exercise is a teensy weensy little bit
lost innit??

**Nope. The FIRST thing to do, in ensure that the prospective amp meets my
suggested list of specs. That is a good start.

- Might as well buy an amp that we're *told* is good (by whom -
bloke in shop? - kinda puts everyone back at Sq. 01 a bit, dunnit??) and
toss the one we've got!!!???

**No need to believe the bloke in the shop.


Otherwise, if we don't *know* it's distorting (until your suggested
comparison is made) it doesn't seem to matter too much does it??

**Presumably, the UK gummint has put in place some kind of consumer
protection laws, which ensure that manufacturers cannot tell fibs about
their amps? Use those laws. If an amp does not meet it's published specs,
then use those laws to force change.


See what I'm saying???

**I do, but do you see what I am saying?


Explanation: I've got a number of different amps here. I like them all, I
do not *detect* any distortion with any of them but it's almost a
certainty they will have different distortion characteristics. If I don't
*notice* it, then it don't sodding matter do it??

**Do any of the amps meet, or exceed, my suggested list of specs?


Another thing - one question you won't get an answer to round here is:
Name an amp which is currently available new from UK audio shops which can
not be considered 'good' - ie is a *bad* amp....???

**Any Audio Note product.
Any sub-1000 Squid home cinema (why do Americans insist on calling it: Home
Theatre?) amplifier. In fact, probably any Home Cinema amp, but I have yet
to test them all. Certainly, none of the cheapies meets all my suggested
criteria.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond
 

Of course this could just be me, and everyone else who I am claming to
have the same result, could think I am taking rubbish.

I think you've described it very well - I can relate to your description (well
- it sounds like that on my system)

I should say that this is not a effect that every valve amplifier I have heard
has had to the same amount,

Agreed - the oldie classics are pretty miserable until you swap a lot of
componants.

its normally much less obvious in push
pull designed, Though the Amity is one PP amp that does have that effect for my
ears.

Do tell us where you have heard the Amity - who has one in the UK? I'd love to
hear one. Any chance in the London area? Andy

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Paul Dormer wrote:


The descriptions suggest (to me - correct me if I'm wrong) etched in
space/holographic type qualities? A visual equivalent might be sharpen
filters in Photoshop. The effect on the definition of instruments,
their edges, solidity..


Yes, I considered using the word holgraphic, but decided it may be a bit
misleading overused in the mags. But yes, in the sense that there is the
feeling that you could walk behind and between the individual sounds.

Not so sure about the sharpen filter idea, that seems to point to
unnatural sharpnes, thats not it at all, what I am describing seems
altogether natural, and not forced.


Delighted you made this point - I agree entirely. When I saw Paul's mention
of 'sharpness filter' I thought 'Neeoow, that aint it!'

For me, the difference between ss and valves is that with valves, the sound
is 'pulled out' (from front to back) kinda like stretching out a paper
christmas decoration, IYSWIM. That's what enables the detail and separation
to be more easily heard. With the ss amps, it's all there and the height and
width might be the same, but it's crushed into a plane between the speakers
and needs teasing out.....

Now, does that sound too wild? :-)

(And it's got absolutely *bugger-all* to do with a fake DSP-like sense of
'space' due to reverb....)

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Paul Dormer" wrote


The descriptions suggest (to me - correct me if I'm wrong) etched in
space/holographic type qualities? A visual equivalent might be sharpen
filters in Photoshop. The effect on the definition of instruments,
their edges, solidity..


Not quite the way I see (hear) it - see my reply to Nick.

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond
 

Andy Evans wrote:


its normally much less obvious in push

pull designed, Though the Amity is one PP amp that does have that effect for my
ears.

Do tell us where you have heard the Amity - who has one in the UK? I'd love to
hear one. Any chance in the London area? Andy


MarkJ on the WAD firum, posts on AA as IslandPink (I think). based in
North Wales. He is also building a pair of Arials. I went over there
with Paul Barker to hear the Amity and collect a set of Arials for Paul
(And also set fire to Marks carpet when a 212 socket broke down :-)).

Marks spending a lot of time getting the best out of the first stage of
the Amity, last I heard he was going to swap the Lundhal phase splitter
for something that didn't require 600R drive to make the job of his pre
simpiler.

If I hear of another get together involving Mark I will let you know.

I suspect you know Chris V, he is around your area, and I think he knows
Mark, certainly knows Paul, the three of us got together to inport three
Tosheba 3950 DVD players after there was so much talk about them in the US.

Strangely introverted hobby this at times :-)

--
Nick

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


Other than 'signal breakup' when the volume's wicked up too hard in
certain circumstamces, what TF does this 'distortion' actually sound
like?? What should I be looking for?? Perhaps if I knew what it was I
could develop a loathing for it also.....??? :-)

**It's not that difficult. Here's how you do it:

1) Find an amplifier which has exemplary specifications (posted earlier
by me).
2) Compare the above-mentioned amplifier in a double blind test.
3) If you can hear a difference, one amplifier is distorting.


(Now, why do I also know that I'm not going to get an answer to this
that doesn't sound like it's coming from a raving looney?)

**Your attempts at projection, is duly noted.


As is your crappy grammar...

**Thank you for being so rude. Do you REALLY want to play that game?


OK, a quick apology for that, then - I didn't mean to 'wound' you! (Just a
bit of 'jab/counter jab' argy bargy.... ;-)


Your writing is not above reproach, you know?


Tell me about it! :-)

(Too much ****ing bad language for a start!! :-)



Let's get real here, my question was serious.

**As was my answer.


Forget all this feckin 'go out and get an amp with exemplary spec and
start sodding around with DBTs' ********. What I want to know is how do
you tell that *that* amp *there* is distorting *right now*???

**Asked and answered.

No!

That's where it all hangs. We get battered to fekkin' death in here by
people hurling the phrase 'audible distortion' about like it glows in the
dark!! (Ooop, possibly a bad simile - we'll see how it goes....) What I want
to know is, without setting up some costly pseudoscientific experiment up,
how can Joe Ordinaire tell when an amp is 'audibly distorting'???

(I'm further making the point that if he don't know, then it don't bloody
matter much, does it??)



(What one or two of you 'professional types' seem to forget this is a
hobbyist group currently threadbare due to all the scary 'technobabble'
that's keeping them out of here!!)

**That is an opinion you get to have.


No, I see it all the time - someone looks in and gets slapped off the lot in
double quick time if he don't look like he's gonna grease up and get in
line....

(Last one was Iain Churches - went up like a skyrocket and burned out real
quick. I saw that coming from Day 01...!!! ;-)



'Cos the point is, if you have to go and buy a *good* amp (when we are
told all ss amps over £300 qualify as 'good' ??)

**I never said anything of the kind. Moreover, I don't beleive that anyone
ever said anything like that.


Oh yes they did - it wuz Pinkypoof.


If you feel that it has been said, then please provide a suitable cite. I
have measured some truly bad (SS) amps, which cost considerably more than
300 Squid.


Again with the hints and allegations - fekkin' name one. (Whisper it if
you're scared of getting a law suit...!!!)



to check out the amp you already
have, then the whole point of the exercise is a teensy weensy little bit
lost innit??

**Nope. The FIRST thing to do, in ensure that the prospective amp meets my
suggested list of specs. That is a good start.


Read what it says on the box, eh? :-)



- Might as well buy an amp that we're *told* is good (by whom -
bloke in shop? - kinda puts everyone back at Sq. 01 a bit, dunnit??) and
toss the one we've got!!!???

**No need to believe the bloke in the shop.


Well, you will always easily find out what they're overstocked with....



Otherwise, if we don't *know* it's distorting (until your suggested
comparison is made) it doesn't seem to matter too much does it??

**Presumably, the UK gummint has put in place some kind of consumer
protection laws, which ensure that manufacturers cannot tell fibs about
their amps? Use those laws. If an amp does not meet it's published specs,
then use those laws to force change.


See what I'm saying???

**I do, but do you see what I am saying?


I see my point being missed....



Explanation: I've got a number of different amps here. I like them all, I
do not *detect* any distortion with any of them but it's almost a
certainty they will have different distortion characteristics. If I don't
*notice* it, then it don't sodding matter do it??

**Do any of the amps meet, or exceed, my suggested list of specs?


Well, I'm damned if I know - I suppose I could check, but it's never dawned
on me to do this - I *don't* detect any frickin' distortion!!!



Another thing - one question you won't get an answer to round here is:
Name an amp which is currently available new from UK audio shops which
can not be considered 'good' - ie is a *bad* amp....???

**Any Audio Note product.

OK, I might be able to do some checking there - geezer round the corner has
an AN pre.


Any sub-1000 Squid home cinema (why do Americans insist on calling it:
Home Theatre?) amplifier. In fact, probably any Home Cinema amp, but I
have yet to test them all. Certainly, none of the cheapies meets all my
suggested criteria.


In that case, I think I can safely say your criteria are pretty meaningless
to an end user like me. We have a ****-cheap Sony AV amp and it's a little
blinder (Sony STR-DE485E AV Receiver if you want to check). Sounds in the
many movies we watch (almost every night - Swim is waiting as I type!) are
beautifully presented into a pair of truly excellent speakers (Ruark
Paladins*) and we get the frickin' lot - from tinkly wind chimes in the far
distance to the plane going over without warning in Northfork that nearly
filled my knickers, first time I heard it!


**OK, guys and gals, a tip from me - it ain't the amp, it ain't the
speakers, it's the amp *and* the speakers. I've got about 4 very successful
pairings on the go now and I can/do listen to any of them any time!

Also the best 'gunfire' to check a Home Cinema (I agree about the 'HT'
epithet) setup is that in 'Master & Commander' - it's recordings of *real*
guns and has that lovely 'punch' to it. (Guns do not go 'bang' - believe you
me!!)

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:
(why do Americans insist on calling it: Home
Theatre?)

From Movie Theatre.

--
*Horn broken. - Watch for finger.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Valve amp (preferably DIY) to drive apair of Wharfedale Diamond II's
 

"Rob" wrote in message
...
Ian Molton wrote:
Keith G wrote:

OK: I consider valve amps to generally sound clear, warm and fluid and
am perfectly happy to ascribe all of that to some form of distortion. I
consider, by comparison, ss amps to sound vague, cold and harsh and am
happy to ascribe all of that to some form of distortion.


cut

Hmm, I'm quite happy to qualify or explain any remark I have made in the
past or might make in the future,


Ok, in that case, explain to me why you cant seem to even accept the
possibility that (good) SS amps sound 'cold and harsh' due to an absence
of audible distortion.

(or will you continue to pretend that you ****-canned me (yeah, right))

I think you'll find that you have been (er) '**** caned' but your point is
interesting.

IMO entire human perception is shrouded in distortion and I find this
whole debate about 'causal distortion' a red herring. Certainly, by
measurement using certain 'rulers', a valve amplifier will provide a set
of measurements different to that of a SS amplifier.

**Not necessarily. In fact, it is VERY DIFFICULT to measure any significant
differences between really good valve amps and really good SS amps. OTOH, it
it trivially simple to measure (and hear) differences between crappy valve
amps and good SS (or valve) amps.


It is my intuitive feeling that many SS amps distort source sound in a way
less benign than that of many valve amps.

**Many, maybe. All, no.

As usual, it is completely wrong to state: "Valves = good, transistors =
bad.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au