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"Wally" wrote


If it's anybody's guess whether the recording is peerless to begin with, I
put it to you that the notions 'improved upon' and 'modified' are not
neccessarily mutually exclusive.


Certainly no particular 'flavour' of circuitry will produce an
impeccable result everytime when fed with varying quality of source
material. The method I favour is to aim for neutrality in
reproduction and accept such flaws as exist as they are rather than
try to 'paint them out' and lose all the good bits in the process.

To hell with neutrality. I aim for what I like the sound of.


The problem here is the 'producers' (pros/retired pros/self-styled pros who
aren't really pros/wannabee pros who never will be pros) can't even create a
neutral product. Never mind that they should try to dictate what we, the
consumers, do with it once we've bought it....

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"Iain Churches" wrote in message
. ..

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


What do you people play recorded music for - to be
entertained and pleased

Yeah, and there's a ton of music in this world that does not need to be
wallpapered to sound good.

or sit there with a notepad and
write down what defects you *think* you can hear....??

That seems to be what you tube bigots do.

Arny. Why do you choose to call people who use/enjoy tube amps
"bigots" Is this in keeping with your new-born Christian beliefs?



Standard 'Christian' behaviour - I never yet met a God-Botherer who wasn't
*drenched* in hypocrisy....

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

Iain Churches wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote in
message ...

Nevertheless a mastering
engineer may well 'equalise for CD' ( whatever that means ) and normalise
listening levels to optimise the 'CD experience'. That's an 'artistic'
decision.

Sorry Graham. Can't agree. I attend several CD mastering
sessions a month EQ and level "optimisation" (that's the correct
term) are used solely to make the finished CD sound as loud
as possible.This is a decision forced by commercial pressure,
to which only certain sectors of the market are subject. It has
nothing whatsoever to do with "art".

That may be typical of widespread current practice but it's not the only way to
do it.

Graham

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Eeyore" wrote in
message ...


Iain Churches wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote in
message ...

Nevertheless a mastering
engineer may well 'equalise for CD' ( whatever that means ) and
normalise
listening levels to optimise the 'CD experience'. That's an 'artistic'
decision.

Sorry Graham. Can't agree. I attend several CD mastering
sessions a month EQ and level "optimisation" (that's the correct
term) are used solely to make the finished CD sound as loud
as possible.This is a decision forced by commercial pressure,
to which only certain sectors of the market are subject. It has
nothing whatsoever to do with "art".

That may be typical of widespread current practice but it's not the only
way to
do it.

As I said, this applies to certain sectors of the market, and thankfully
does
not include the genre in which I work, classical and jazz.

Iain

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Eeyore" wrote in
message ...


Keith G wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

snip crap

I really sometimes wonder what the audiophool nuts reckon audio
professionals do for a living ?

Well, according to some sources, they could turn one of Beethoven's
bottled
farts into his 10th Symphony if they wanted to, but let's not go there...

Those sources haven't a clue. It does however sound like a popular
audiophool
misrepresentation.



You keep using this word 'audiophool' - are you including me here??

The idea that Sound Engineers can turn some highly shaggable bimbo's
toneless wailing into a number one hit comes as much from the media (TV
programmes) as anywhere else...



That's just fine.

I've never had any issue with anyone who chooses to use electronics
creatively
to alter the listening experience to suit their taste as long as they're
honest
about it.


Honest?


What does offend me is those who present 'their way' as the only true one
and
are wholly dishonest about the methods they use and then present them as
'superior' to the path of neutral accuracy.


I think you want to direct that toward the Denial Boys here - with their
'low distortion SS/digital is the only way to go' dogma.

As to 'neutral accuracy', how many times do you need to be told it isn't the
be-all and end-all for everyone here and that some of us discern/perceive a
greater *realism* from what might well be regarded as a non-neutral,
'innacurate' method of reproduction...??

Let me put that simply and speak only for myself - I can do 'blameless' any
time I want (I have all the ingredients), but I passed through that stage a
long time ago. The route I have followed since has taken me to *far greater*
pleasure than the flat, blurry, two-dimensional and *boring* sound that
nice, safe, 'low distortion' SS kit on modern multiway speakers tends to
produce - which is perfectly OK for movies, the telly or 'wallpaper radio',
of course...

(It obviously never did 'cut the mustard' for me for *music* or I wouldn't
have bothered searching for summat better, would I? ;-)



Neutral, as I've hinted at a couple of times isn't always maybe the
'easiest
listening experience' but it can be a true revalation.



'Neutral' on SS kit would be OK if you could actually hear all the *detail*
for a start....!!



Do you have Joni Mitchell's Blue btw ? It has a number of flaws imho but
it's
well worth listening to 'straight'. I use it as one of my regular
references as
it happens.


No, asitappens - I have a number of Joni Mitchell albums, but that isn't one
of them. I'm not her greatest fan....

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
. ..

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


What do you people play recorded music for - to be
entertained and pleased

Yeah, and there's a ton of music in this world that does not need to be
wallpapered to sound good.

or sit there with a notepad and
write down what defects you *think* you can hear....??

That seems to be what you tube bigots do.

Arny. Why do you choose to call people who use/enjoy tube amps
"bigots" Is this in keeping with your new-born Christian beliefs?



Standard 'Christian' behaviour - I never yet met a God-Botherer who wasn't
*drenched* in hypocrisy....


Or a seriously ****e driver....

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
. ..

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
oups.com...
What they are confusing this with is their preference for an
intentionally flawed but
entirely pleasnt and relatively benign form of distortion. Nothing
wrong with their
listening preference but the presentation of this as inherently
superior is utterly
bogus.

The idea that valves are simply "added distortion" and nothing else
could only be made by somebody with a) very little knowledge of modern
valve circuits and how they sound or b) somebody with cloth ears.


A Swedish "very high end" dealer told me just recently:
quote:

" The very top of the audio market is totally dominated by
tube amplifiers. Music lovers in this sector (many of who
have speakers at 10k a pair) are highly discerning."


No more so than some of us nearer the *bottom* of the pond, I would
hope!! ;-)



No indeed. But it illustrates that those with *both* impeccable
taste *and* lashings of the elusive spondoolicks pick valve amps.
For them, unlike the rest of us, it's not down to DIY, fettling
or e.Bay:-))


:-)

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
oups.com...
All it has to do is sound as *realistic* as possible for me - that's
*my* realistic, not anyone else's and it definitely helps if I can hear
*all* of the voices, *all* of the words (where applicable) and *all* of
the instruments. Keith.

Keith, you're definitely heading for one of my small-DHT preamps - I
can give you all the kit bits cheap and you can assemble it. Don't ask
me why, but these small DHTs have a clarity I don't find in any other
amplification stage. You have a little treat in store. Andy



OK. I have read the thread and Iain's dead right - this is temptation
indeed!

When I built the 2A3 LW SET I built a 'power amp only'version to avoid
problems in the pre-amp stage (it was my first scratch build) and because I
already had/have an EAR 834L Line Stage. The EAR has been boxed up ready for
eBaying/posting for a while now (haven't got round to it yet) as Swim jumped
on the sound for *veiled* every damn time I tried to use it!! The trouble
with the 2A3 is that it does need a little pre-ing to prevent the need to
push it too hard. Lately I have been using a nice Denon amp's pre section to
do this with great effect and also the bonus of remote control for 'volume'
&c. but what you suggest is very interesting....

Email me with some details and an idea of cost (pix too, if you have any)
but bear in mind if I do have a go it will be the basis for a webpage like
this!

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/trio...de_project.htm

;-)

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


You've got more faith with some of these 'hot under the
collar' types than I have Andy - I take a lot of what
they say with a pinch of salt (large one). Most of 'em
have never heard a valve amp and some of the others have
only heard some old *legacy* struggler at best and seem
to forget what some of the transistor equipment from the
70s could sound like.....

And some of us jsut lately spent three days at a
well-known high end audio show, listening to bunches and
bunches of this crap. Did I say that it was crap?

What crap - legacy valve amps or 70s transistor equipment?

Actually, new production valve amps.

Or are you saying there were a *lot* of new valve amps
there?

Yes.

If there were it would tell us something - your
not liking them means nothing to me, almost certainly
nothing to the manufacturers or even the rest of the
world probably....?? ;-)

Fact is the matter is that almost nobody likes this crap - just a few
poorly-educated, well-funded, obsessive-compulsives.

Apogee mini dac or Benchmark DAC1
 

"Eeyore"
wrote
in message
Keith G wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


You've got more faith with some of these 'hot under the
collar' types than I have Andy - I take a lot of what
they say with a pinch of salt (large one). Most of 'em
have never heard a valve amp and some of the others
have only heard some old *legacy* struggler at best
and seem to forget what some of the transistor
equipment from the 70s could sound like.....

And some of us jsut lately spent three days at a
well-known high end audio show, listening to bunches
and bunches of this crap. Did I say that it was crap?

What crap - legacy valve amps

'Legacy' valve amps are currently being manufactured.


or 70s transistor equipment?

70s transistor equipment was last manufactured in then
ummm.... errrrr... 70s !


Or are you saying there were a *lot* of new valve amps
there? If there were it would tell us something - your
not liking them means nothing to me, almost certainly
nothing to the manufacturers or even the rest of the
world probably....?? ;-)

There is essentially no 'new' tube design possible due to
the serious fundamental limitations of the devices. Any
significant advances terminated in the 50s.

One irony is that there were very few commercial high-powered SETs until the
last decade or two. By the time there were tubes that could handle enough
power to be interesting, running audio amp output stages in push-pull had
become quite the rage.