"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Interesting observations, but while a picture may be
worth a thousand words, it ain't worth a single note of
music: I may well make some comparisons at some point in
the future, recording one channel flat and one channel
with and without 'voicing' to see what it all adds up
to.

Although, I suspect 'flat' is how I'll stay and is how
I've recorded all the clips I've posted here.

Why not just get a decent solid state mic pre-amp without
any of the frills. The sort of thing all recording
studios (other than the nutcase ones) use.

Plenty of single chip designs.

Agreed.

We all know that Kitty is attracted to toobs like a flame attracts flies.
;-)


Those little valve pres were recommended to me by a real 'Pro' - you know,
someone who is *paid* to work in the game....

(A little bit over your head, Amy... ;-)

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Dave "domestic" type is found often keyboards and
music amps, wired either stereo or balanced, but rarely
on domestic audio (headphone feed is the common
exception)

It wasn't when the terms GPO and domestic were adopted, which was before I
joined BBC TV in 1962. The 'GPO' bit should give you a clue. At that time
the only common use for the large tip TRS was domestic stereo headphones,
and some balance mic inputs on high end domestic tape recorders.
Electronic musical instruments used the 1/4 mono jack. Small domestic
mixers that used a TRS for an insert point or mic input had yet to be
invented - or at least were rare.

--
*Santa's helpers are subordinate clauses*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Probably because A and B are used for so many other things. The TV
convention of calling them domestic and GPO worked just fine in the
UK. A different thing from using the official terms.

I wonder why you call them "domestic", when stereo
or balanced line on jack is rarely found on domestic
equipment - headphone outputs being the exception.

They were used as balanced mic inputs on high end domestic tape recorders
- before the days of stereo. And on some semi pro mixers or amps. The sort
you might find in a dance hall. But not on any pro gear.

In music we use the term "balanced jack" (add plug, if you like:-)
when it is obvious you don't mean a patchbay (GPO) type.

GPO is rather less of a mouthful than 'balanced jack'. And in TV we are
used to doing things at some speed - unlike the leisurely approach of the
recording studio.

--
*I can see your point, but I still think you're full of ****.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
You are 'familiar' with the patch bays of those consoles you've looked
at.
Neve, at one time at least, made custom units for any application

Dave, these are consoles I have used, on a great number of occasions
over many years not "looked at" !

Makes me wonder. Very few TV studios have a 'standard' jackfield. Which
means local knowledge is very important.

Not that long ago I dubbed a series at an independent facility. They had a
console which was ex Abbey Road, and sort of adapted for their use. With a
total nightmare of a jackfield.

. And
pretty well any maker would do a jackfield to your requirements. Very
few would just accept what was on offer. Neither SSL or Studer are
known for TV studio production consols in the UK, although I think LWT
may have used SSL at one time.


Both are excellent.

They might be excellent for their intended application. Which is rarely TV
specific. TV requires all sorts of facilities you'd simply not need in a
recording studio, so a specially designed desk using some standard modules
is the way to go. But the costly route. Music shows are only a small
proportion of the workload of most studios, so they have to be designed in
the main for rather more complex programmes, sound wise.

If you have each wall box mic input hard wired to a desk channel it
makes rigging things in the studio a nightmare - cables would be
running in all directions.

It's actually very simple. Lines 1-24 are say for your rhythm
section mics.

Yet another example of your blinkered view. TV studios are used for all
sorts of things as well as music progs.

Get away! :-))

You give the impression everything revolves around music, so it seemed
sensible to point that out. A well equipped TV studio can handle any sort
of show. The sort of studio you are familiar with wouldn't know where to
start, facilities wise.


And, of course, could have an
orchestra in any part of the studio. The positioning of it can be
determined by the set design.

Not by the most suitable position?

Have you ever been in a TV studio, Iain? If so please give your
impressions of the acoustics compared to what you're used to - and perhaps
ponder why?


Music studios use fairly standard set ups.
One might use a mirror image, but most of the placings
are fairly standard. The visual impression is of no
consequence.

'Neat' cable forms are of absolutely no benefit if a camera wishes to
track over them...

In making music, we don't have to even consider that.
- fortunately. So neat cableforms are the order of
the day:-)

Blinkered vision noted once more.

But well designed TV studios will have a number of stage boxes which can
be run out to the ork area to avoid having cables everywhere.

--
*How come you never hear about gruntled employees? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
You are talking about music recording studios, Dave is talking about
TV studios. So why are you both insisting that your experience must
apply to the other? Talk about a pointless exchange!

The same basic principles of XLR input boxes apply.


Well clearly it doesn't, so why pretend that it does?

Of course it does. Mics wall boxes are one of the
things that both types of studios have in common.

TV wallboxes are very different to recording studio ones. Far more
facilities. But the discussion was about the XLR mic input on the wallbox
going via a GPO jack field to the desk input. Pretty well the norm in a TV
studio.

--
*I wish the buck stopped here. I could use a few.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
David Looser wrote:
The refusal of the broadcast and recording industries to use agreed,
unambiguous terms for the various types of 1/4" jack is one of the
mysteries of modern life. Whilst the terms Dave uses are vague, yours
are worse.

The BBC were famous for inventing their own terms for things. ;-) And of
course being the major single organisation using them, that use often
percolated to others in broadcasting. But not always. In the staff days
there would be jargon confined to just the one company. Can make for
problems now most are freelance and move around. ;-)

--
*If you don't like the news, go out and make some.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
It's quite simple. There are two types of TRS 6.3mm jacks.

They're both actually 1/4" if you want to be pedantic. They were designed
before metrication.

The one popularly known as the GPO type, with the small
tip, is used in music studios only on patch bays. Cables with
one of these at either end are referred to as patch cords.

In TV studios at one time they were used for a great deal more. Just about
anything that required a line, rather than mic level feed. Like high
impedance headphones. Telephones. Foldback speakers. Etc etc.
And nobody ever talks about 'patch cords' in broadcasting. Universally
known as double enders.

The other type, with the larger ball tip, is used everywhere
else (music amps, keyboards etc) It is referred to as a
balaced jack (add plug if you like:-) and usually has an
XLR on the other end of the cable.

--
*Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
In every single BBC TV studio I've had experience of. Even those
fitted
with assignable consoles where the need is lessened.

But that's the Beeb. What about the hundreds ad hundreds of other
studios in the EU?

ITV and independant TV facilities are the same in the UK.. And I'm
willing
to bet it will be exactly the same in any large TV production studio
throughout the world - since the problems are exactly the same.

I am familiar with Neve, SSL and Studer patch bays. In each
case the top row of connectors is MicAmpOut. There is no
possibility to plug anything into the mic amp input except from
a wall box or at the back of the console. Good sense.

You are 'familiar' with the patch bays of those consoles you've looked
at.
Neve, at one time at least, made custom units for any application

Dave, these are consoles I have used, on a great number of occasions
over many years not "looked at" !

. And
pretty well any maker would do a jackfield to your requirements. Very few
would just accept what was on offer. Neither SSL or Studer are known for
TV studio production consols in the UK, although I think LWT may have
used
SSL at one time.


Both are excellent.

If you have each wall box mic input hard wired to a desk channel it
makes rigging things in the studio a nightmare - cables would be
running in all directions.

It's actually very simple. Lines 1-24 are say for your rhythm
section mics.

Yet another example of your blinkered view. TV studios are used for all
sorts of things as well as music progs.

Get away! :-))


And, of course, could have an
orchestra in any part of the studio. The positioning of it can be
determined by the set design.

Not by the most suitable position?


Music studios use fairly standard set ups.
One might use a mirror image, but most of the placings
are fairly standard. The visual impression is of no
consequence.

'Neat' cable forms are of absolutely no benefit if a camera wishes to
track over them...

In making music, we don't have to even consider that.
- fortunately. So neat cableforms are the order of
the day:-)


Why do I get the impression that you are just giving Pucci endless
opportunities to wank on about his boring little bottom-feeder *job* back
gawd knows when, Iain?

"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
Ian Iveson wrote:
Ian Bell wrote:

That's not distortion that's clipping.
And clipping isn't distortion? Symmetrical clipping is
a sum of odd harmonics. Asymmetric clipping is a
mixture of even and odd. Clipping also introduces
severe IM.

Don't be such a pedantic arse.

It's you that made the distinction in the first place,
silly.
YAWN

If both gain stages produce only even harmonics, then
they will tend to cancel and the remainder will still
be even. If both produce lots of even and some odd,
then the evens will tend to cancel and the odds sum
when combined. The consequence is that a range of
combinations of odd and even are possible, depending on
amplitude and the relative gain contributed by each of
the two stages.

Rubbish, the proportion of distortion in each stage is
primarily determined by the signal level in that stage,

So far we agree, except for the silly "rubbish" bit,
assuming that the control doesn't change the operating
conditions of either stage, and excluding possibly lots
of other things that might be in the circuit that we
don't know about. Or I don't, anyway. Presumably you do?

the last stage thereby swamping that produced by earlier
ones.

Thereby? How? And what's it got to do with what I wrote,
anyway?


You said "If both gain stages produce....." etc

If the last stage has a gain only of ten then the level,
and hence contribution of the previous stage to the
overall distortion, will be ten times less, in other words
irrelevant.

My guitar amp hasn't got a clue what you're on about. I can
see where you're going wrong but hey, you're a commercial
preamp designer so I'm inclined to let you fester.

Try to be less grumpy.

Try not to be such a pompous twit.

Still grumpy:-(

Now you're unemployed, you no longer need to take pride in
the mediocrity of your education. Emancipate yourself from
mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds...

Ian

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Why not just get a decent solid state mic pre-amp without
any of the frills. The sort of thing all recording
studios (other than the nutcase ones) use.

Plenty of single chip designs.

Agreed.

We all know that Kitty is attracted to toobs like a flame attracts
flies. ;-)


Those little valve pres were recommended to me by a real 'Pro' - you
know, someone who is *paid* to work in the game...

Maybe it does have its uses for specialist applications. But not for the
very basic stuff you do.

--
*Sleep with a photographer and watch things develop

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.