"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Looser wrote:
Iain seems to think the two are the same - since he has referred to a
domestic one for his radio headset and studio jackfields as both TRS.
I normally refer to them as domestic and GPO, as do most in TV. The
younger lads soon learn. ;-)


It's precisely because the term "TRS" applies equally to both gauges
(and indeed to 3.5mm 'stereo' plugs for that matter) that I find the
term so imprecise as to encourage ambiguity. I still don't understand
why the recording and broadcast industries don't use the clear &
unambiguous terms "A gauge" and "B gauge".

Probably because A and B are used for so many other things. The TV
convention of calling them domestic and GPO worked just fine in the UK. A
different thing from using the official terms.

I wonder why you call them "domestic", when stereo
or balanced line on jack is rarely found on domestic
equipment - headphone outputs being the exception.

In music we use the term "balanced jack" (add plug, if you like:-)
when it is obvious you don't mean a patchbay (GPO) type.

Iain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
In every single BBC TV studio I've had experience of. Even those fitted
with assignable consoles where the need is lessened.

But that's the Beeb. What about the hundreds ad hundreds of other
studios in the EU?

ITV and independant TV facilities are the same in the UK.. And I'm willing
to bet it will be exactly the same in any large TV production studio
throughout the world - since the problems are exactly the same.

I am familiar with Neve, SSL and Studer patch bays. In each
case the top row of connectors is MicAmpOut. There is no
possibility to plug anything into the mic amp input except from
a wall box or at the back of the console. Good sense.

You are 'familiar' with the patch bays of those consoles you've looked at.
Neve, at one time at least, made custom units for any application

Dave, these are consoles I have used, on a great number of occasions
over many years not "looked at" !

.. And
pretty well any maker would do a jackfield to your requirements. Very few
would just accept what was on offer. Neither SSL or Studer are known for
TV studio production consols in the UK, although I think LWT may have used
SSL at one time.


Both are excellent.

If you have each wall box mic input hard wired to a desk channel it
makes rigging things in the studio a nightmare - cables would be
running in all directions.

It's actually very simple. Lines 1-24 are say for your rhythm
section mics.

Yet another example of your blinkered view. TV studios are used for all
sorts of things as well as music progs.

Get away! :-))


And, of course, could have an
orchestra in any part of the studio. The positioning of it can be
determined by the set design.

Not by the most suitable position?


Music studios use fairly standard set ups.
One might use a mirror image, but most of the placings
are fairly standard. The visual impression is of no
consequence.

'Neat' cable forms are of absolutely no benefit if a camera wishes to
track over them...

In making music, we don't have to even consider that.
- fortunately. So neat cableforms are the order of
the day:-)

Iain

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote

It's actually very simple. Lines 1-24 are say for your rhythm
section mics. The box is fitted in the dry carpetted end of the studio,
with 1-12 on the wall of the drum booth. 25-48 are for other
instruments, still on the carpet. 49-60 are in the live end for
strings etc. You can still run neat cableforms even from one
end to the other if you wish, and even bind with with colour
Velchro for ID. Normal everyday practice.


You are talking about music recording studios, Dave is talking about TV
studios. So why are you both insisting that your experience must apply
to the other? Talk about a pointless exchange!

The same basic principles of XLR input boxes apply.


Well clearly it doesn't, so why pretend that it does?

Of course it does. Mics wall boxes are one of the
things that both types of studios have in common.

"Iain Churches" wrote

I wonder why you call them "domestic", when stereo
or balanced line on jack is rarely found on domestic
equipment - headphone outputs being the exception.

3-pole A gauge jacks are frequently used on "semi-pro" kit, such as PA
systems, cheapo mixers etc. as well as headphone sockets on domestic HiFi
amplifiers.

In music we use the term "balanced jack" (add plug, if you like:-)
when it is obvious you don't mean a patchbay (GPO) type.

That's utterly meaningless. Patchbays are almost always balanced, so how can
you use the term "balanced jack" to distinguish it from a "patchbay" type?
And how is it supposed to be "obvious" what you mean?

The refusal of the broadcast and recording industries to use agreed,
unambiguous terms for the various types of 1/4" jack is one of the mysteries
of modern life. Whilst the terms Dave uses are vague, yours are worse.

David.

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


The same basic principles of XLR input boxes apply.


Well clearly it doesn't, so why pretend that it does?

Of course it does. Mics wall boxes are one of the
things that both types of studios have in common.


They *existance* of the boxes may be something in common, but the way they
are connected is different. And since it was the way they are connected that
was the point at issue, your comment "The same basic principles of XLR input
boxes apply" is, just plain wrong.

David.

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote

I wonder why you call them "domestic", when stereo
or balanced line on jack is rarely found on domestic
equipment - headphone outputs being the exception.

3-pole A gauge jacks are frequently used on "semi-pro" kit, such as PA
systems, cheapo mixers etc. as well as headphone sockets on domestic HiFi
amplifiers.

In music we use the term "balanced jack" (add plug, if you like:-)
when it is obvious you don't mean a patchbay (GPO) type.

That's utterly meaningless. Patchbays are almost always balanced, so how
can you use the term "balanced jack" to distinguish it from a "patchbay"
type? And how is it supposed to be "obvious" what you mean?


It's quite simple. There are two types of TRS 6.3mm jacks.
The one popularly known as the GPO type, with the small
tip, is used in music studios only on patch bays. Cables with
one of these at either end are referred to as patch cords.

The other type, with the larger ball tip, is used everywhere
else (music amps, keyboards etc) It is referred to as a
balaced jack (add plug if you like:-) and usually has an
XLR on the other end of the cable.

Iain

"Iain Churches" wrote

It's quite simple. There are two types of TRS 6.3mm jacks.
The one popularly known as the GPO type,

The "GPO" ceased to exist in the 1960s. And the B gauge plug was designed by
Western Electric, not the GPO.

with the small
tip, is used in music studios only on patch bays.

Whilst outside music studios it is very widely used for balanced audio in a
wide variety of applications.

Cables with
one of these at either end are referred to as patch cords.

*Any* short cable with the same sort of plug on each end intended to be used
on a patch bay is a "patch cord". Such as the MUSA patch cords widely used
on video patchbays.

The other type, with the larger ball tip, is used everywhere
else (music amps, keyboards etc) It is referred to as a
balaced jack (add plug if you like:-)

Refered to by who?, you?

Many people call it the "stereo" plug since it is widely used to carry
unbalanced stereo.

and usually has an
XLR on the other end of the cable.

Does it? even when it has a pair of heaphones on the other end?

You have a way of referring to these plugs that may mean something to you
and your colleagues. But can only cause confusion when used outside your own
small circle.

David.

In article , Chris Isbell
wrote:
On Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:42:53 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

Must admit that I have long been used to 'int' being signed 32 bit by
default. So I was surprised more recently to see how common it was for
x86 GCC and Linux, Doze, etc, to tend to use 16 bit by default. With
GCC I use 'long' (32 bit) for any audio values that are integers. (And
I have always used 'double' for floating points.)

From memory (my copy of K&R is at work), int must be at least sixteen
bits and long at least thirty-two bits.

Yes, page 36 in my copy (2nd edition).

When people assume 16 bits for int values it causes portability
problems. I have quite a lot of experience of this from developing
software for sixteen-bit microcontrollers.

Overally, I largely jumped over that, I guess. Went directly from BBC B etc
to 32/26 bit ARM.

However the curious thing for me is that - IIUC - GCC assumes 16 bits for
'int' even on machines with 32 bit CPUs. That clashes with what K&R wrote
higher up the same page as above - that the choice for 'int' should be what
is natural for the machine. But I only recently noticed this quirk when I
started writing Linux apps to process audio data files.

That also caused me to use my first 'unsigned long' to cope with handling
the size of a very large LPCM file! Using 'long' returned the result that
the WAV file had a negative payload! 8-]

So it does seem plausible that the 'clips at -6dB for mono' effect that was
reported was due to inappropriate use of 16bit ints. As you say, maybe
because the same source code works OK on other platforms this has passed
unnoticed by the writers.

Personally, it tends to comfirm my own preference for writing my own code
when I can - albeit making my own mistakes in the process! :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote

It's quite simple. There are two types of TRS 6.3mm jacks.
The one popularly known as the GPO type,

The "GPO" ceased to exist in the 1960s. And the B gauge plug was designed
by Western Electric, not the GPO.

That doesn't matter. It is still know as a GPO plug:-)


with the small
tip, is used in music studios only on patch bays.

Whilst outside music studios it is very widely used for balanced audio in
a wide variety of applications.

Agreed.

Cables with
one of these at either end are referred to as patch cords.

The other type, with the larger ball tip, is used everywhere
else (music amps, keyboards etc) It is referred to as a
balanced jack (add plug if you like:-)

Refered to by who?, you?

By music studio personnel

Many people call it the "stereo" plug since it is widely used to carry
unbalanced stereo.

In music studios it is known as balanced jack.
Musicians refer to it as stereo jack. Neither
is incorrect, the plug may be used in either role.


and usually has an
XLR on the other end of the cable.

Does it? even when it has a pair of heaphones on the other end?

:-) That's a pair of cans with a GPO jack (plug) Not a cable.
Balanced jack to XLR is by far the most common combination
for a cable with a jack plug at one end.


You have a way of referring to these plugs that may mean something to you
and your colleagues. But can only cause confusion when used outside your
own small circle.

Hardly a small circle:-)
I wonder how many thousand music studios there
are in the EU? Most, with the exception of the French,
seem to use English terminology. I cannot recall any
confusion.

Iain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Interesting observations, but while a picture may be
worth a thousand words, it ain't worth a single note of
music: I may well make some comparisons at some point in
the future, recording one channel flat and one channel
with and without 'voicing' to see what it all adds up
to.

Although, I suspect 'flat' is how I'll stay and is how
I've recorded all the clips I've posted here.

Why not just get a decent solid state mic pre-amp without
any of the frills. The sort of thing all recording
studios (other than the nutcase ones) use.

Plenty of single chip designs.

Agreed.

We all know that Kitty is attracted to toobs like a flame attracts flies.
;-)