Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between
some amplifiers.

Can't comment on "popular opinion" beyond noticing that abc1 has just
started on Freeview. :-)

However I am personally quite happy to accept that some amplifiers can make
audible differences in some circumstances.

I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World, August 2004 issue,
where the differences between regular Global NFB amplifiers and zero
Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes some way towards
uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.

If you are referring to the series of articles by Graham Maynard then I'd
recommend treating them with *great* caution.

I have been collecting them and trying to make sense of his claims and
"explanations". A lot of what he writes seems to me to be muddled,
ambiguous, and misleading. There are some useful points, but they are
buried in a lot of muddled arguments and misleading "explanations", I
think. Also quite a lot of what I might call "make mountains out of
molehills by describing well know effects out of context in a confused
manner". However I have been waiting until the full series is finished
before anaysing them in critical detail.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

In article , Tat Chan
wrote:


What other esoteric mags are there? Stereophile publishes measurements,
and HFN&RR probably does (haven't seen a copy for a while, the recent
ones at my newsagent were sealed).

HFN does both 'auditions' (no real measurements) and 'lab tests'.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone (as
in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who would say
amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will sound
identical.

**Duh. The trick is, that many amps are actually measurably wrong, when
driving real world speakers. The catch is, of course, that few measurements
are conducted when the amplifier is connected to an actual speaker.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:09:38 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:15:45 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:

What other esoteric mags are there? Stereophile publishes measurements,
and HFN&RR probably does (haven't seen a copy for a while, the recent
ones at my newsagent were sealed).

The Absolute Sound, Hi-Fi+, UHF, for some. Sterophile and HFN are the
daddies of all mainstream mags, certainly not 'esoteric'.

I have seen the TAS at my newsagent from time to time.

Btw, I think Stereophile is esoteric compared to What Hi Fi and Hi Fi
Choice!

What Hi-Fi certainly, but Hi-Fi Choice often goes pretty upmarket -
although not generally above £10k, to be sure. Mind you, you'd expect
some similarities in style between HFN and S'pile, as S'pile's editor
used to edit HFN.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

In message , Trevor Wilson
writes

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
I had an interesting experience this morning. I have been helping a hi-fi
newbie at work choose his first AV system. When it came to amplifiers I
had advised him to try the Arcam AVR300 which suited his requirements and
would nicely fit on his tv/hi-fi rack. Plus I knew of Arcam's excellent
after sales service and I have an AV8/P7 which I am very happy with.

All was well until someone suggested that it might be interesting to try
the Denon amp at a similar price as it was getting good reviews. It was
wired in to exactly the same cables and speakers and the speaker levels
(balance) were set the same.

My newbie mate was first to indicate his feelings. The Denon was, to my
ears considerably more alive and dynamic than the Arcam both on CD and DVD
music videos. The Arcam was warm and cuddly but very laid back. He decided
on the Denon and it was easy to have a preference.

This friend of mine had never been in a hi-fi dem in his life before and
because we were using a projector for the music DVDs the room was in
almost total darkness there was no subtle facial expressions guiding him
at all. Don't anyone ever tell me all good amps sound the same, they
simply don't, unless of course these amps are both not good. I will
concede that it could have been the DACs that were so different as we did
not use an analogue source but even so...

Incidentally, I wouldn't think the shop wanted that result as the Denon
was 300UKP cheaper.

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between some
amplifiers. I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World, August 2004
issue, where the differences between regular Global NFB amplifiers and zero
Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes some way towards
uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.



Oh Please don't bring Graham up, his articles are full of half-truths
masquerading as 'research'.
--
Chris Morriss

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

That sounds rather tautological to me.

Sadly, it's not.

Actually, it is. Consider...

"all amps, able to accurately replicate the input signal on the output
terminals, will sound identical"

If it isn't, then what does "accurately" mean in this context?


You'd be amazed what tricks some 'respected' makers
get up to to make their amps sound 'different' and therefore 'better'
at a simple audition. But these are easily measured. Which is why
some of the more esoteric mags don't like lab tests.

Not relevant to the proposition being analysed.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 02:03:17 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Wally wrote:
the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same
- that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

That sounds rather tautological to me.

Sadly, it's not. You'd be amazed what tricks some 'respected' makers get
up to to make their amps sound 'different' and therefore 'better' at a
simple audition. But these are easily measured. Which is why some of the
more esoteric mags don't like lab tests.

What tricks do they get up to?

--
Cheers, Des

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:52:46 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone
(as in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who
would say amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps around
I think I could just about swallow that.

Sorry, there are *lots* of competent amps around. The basic
preconditions of no clipping and level matching from 20-20,000 Hz
seems adequate to eliminate the dross.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:57:37 +0100, Chris Morriss
wrote:

In message , Trevor Wilson
writes

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between some
amplifiers. I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World, August 2004
issue, where the differences between regular Global NFB amplifiers and zero
Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes some way towards
uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.


Oh Please don't bring Graham up, his articles are full of half-truths
masquerading as 'research'.

Ah, but Trevor will uncritically wolf down anything which says that
zero global feedback is best! :-)

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...

I'll be honest, I was more interested in the projector at the time so
I then had to catch up.

What was it? - My mate SN fell on his arse trying to impress me with a
£5K Mitsubishi HC2000 DLP jobbie! Nothing to write home about for that
kind of wedge, I'll tell ya!!

There were two in the room, one was a Domino ~3500UKP a bit pricey and to
my surprise they also had a screenplay 4805 which is much cheaper around
1300UKP. Due to circumstances I did not have a long time to compare them
(it was not my dem session) and the Domino was driven from my mate dave's
Sony DVD recorder and the 4805 was driven from a Arcam DVD player nearly
1000UKP as I understand it.

IMHO the Arcam/4805 was the better combination. Not entirely sure if that
suggests anything but it was interesting.



Yes, I imagine it was.

I think that, until the 3 chip DLP models are available/affordable, there's
not much point in spending more than a grand on a LCD panasonic...

(Only downside is that they are a bit 'short' for large rooms...)