Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:52:46 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone
(as in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who
would say amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps around
I think I could just about swallow that.

Sorry, there are *lots* of competent amps around. The basic
preconditions of no clipping and level matching from 20-20,000 Hz
seems adequate to eliminate the dross.



OK, but 'dross' like what? OK, *all* valves amps - goes without saying, but
fer gawd's sake give us an example of what you consider to be 'dross'???

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Bob Latham wrote:

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps around
I think I could just about swallow that.

There probably a fair number of them. *I* certainly havent auditioned
anywhere close to enough amps to say so.

I'd guess my Quad405 is probably up there in the 'pretty decent' range,
although nowhere near the top of it...

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between
some amplifiers.

Can't comment on "popular opinion" beyond noticing that abc1 has just
started on Freeview. :-)

However I am personally quite happy to accept that some amplifiers can
make
audible differences in some circumstances.

I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World, August 2004 issue,
where the differences between regular Global NFB amplifiers and zero
Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes some way towards
uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.

If you are referring to the series of articles by Graham Maynard then I'd
recommend treating them with *great* caution.

I have been collecting them and trying to make sense of his claims and
"explanations". A lot of what he writes seems to me to be muddled,
ambiguous, and misleading. There are some useful points, but they are
buried in a lot of muddled arguments and misleading "explanations", I
think. Also quite a lot of what I might call "make mountains out of
molehills by describing well know effects out of context in a confused
manner". However I have been waiting until the full series is finished
before anaysing them in critical detail.

**I look forward to your analysis.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:42:04 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:52:46 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone
(as in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who
would say amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps around
I think I could just about swallow that.

Sorry, there are *lots* of competent amps around. The basic
preconditions of no clipping and level matching from 20-20,000 Hz
seems adequate to eliminate the dross.

OK, but 'dross' like what? OK, *all* valves amps - goes without saying, but
fer gawd's sake give us an example of what you consider to be 'dross'???

That should be obvious - any amplifier which does *not* sound just
like its input signal. And yes Keith, a few valve amps can indeed
passc this fundamental test of fidelity - but they're very expensive.
Think C-J Premier Eight and ARC VT-100 etc.

I would also simplfy things by including all amps with less than 30
watts output per channel into 8 ohms, all amps not capable of driving
a 2 ohm load to at least three times the rated 8-ohm power (at least
for a few seconds, and I'll accept a valve amp used on the 4-ohm tap
for this test), and all amps with more than 0.1% THD from 20Hz to
20kHz at all power levels up to 75% of full output, and more than 0.1%
HF IMD on a two-tone test. Those measurements (boo, hiss!) will IME
ensure that the first and most important condition is met.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
Bob Latham wrote:

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps
around
I think I could just about swallow that.

There probably a fair number of them. *I* certainly havent auditioned
anywhere close to enough amps to say so.

I'd guess my Quad405 is probably up there in the 'pretty decent' range,
although nowhere near the top of it...


Oh dear oh dear!

Sorry to be on your case today, my little Molton Larva, but all this yap
from you about *hi*fi and distortion etc. and you're running a fekkin' Quad
405!! Priceless!! Which one - the 405-2?

Anyway, go to http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/655/ and
follow the links at the bottom of the page......

(Didn't they also double as bun-warmers....???)

Ya hafta fekkin' larf...... :-)

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:42:04 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:52:46 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know
anyone
(as in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who
would say amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the
same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps
around
I think I could just about swallow that.

Sorry, there are *lots* of competent amps around. The basic
preconditions of no clipping and level matching from 20-20,000 Hz
seems adequate to eliminate the dross.

OK, but 'dross' like what? OK, *all* valves amps - goes without saying,
but
fer gawd's sake give us an example of what you consider to be 'dross'???

That should be obvious - any amplifier which does *not* sound just
like its input signal. And yes Keith, a few valve amps can indeed
passc this fundamental test of fidelity - but they're very expensive.
Think C-J Premier Eight and ARC VT-100 etc.

I would also simplfy things by including all amps with less than 30
watts output per channel into 8 ohms, all amps not capable of driving
a 2 ohm load to at least three times the rated 8-ohm power (at least
for a few seconds, and I'll accept a valve amp used on the 4-ohm tap
for this test), and all amps with more than 0.1% THD from 20Hz to
20kHz at all power levels up to 75% of full output, and more than 0.1%
HF IMD on a two-tone test. Those measurements (boo, hiss!) will IME
ensure that the first and most important condition is met.
--


No, sorry, probably didn't make myself clear - I mean a *specific*
example(s) like 'Cyrus X', 'Quad Y', MF 'Z' or whatever....??

Or, put it another way, what freely available/current make and model amps
would you regard as 'bad'....???

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


If you are referring to the series of articles by Graham Maynard then
I'd recommend treating them with *great* caution.


**I look forward to your analysis.

Stay tuned, but patience may be required. I'm still awaiting the conclusion
of his series of articles. Also, our library didn't get one issue so I'm
chasing that at present. Once I have them all I have to plough through his
rather rambling and ambiguous prose. (Have you tried counting how many
words some of his 'sentences' have!) Then I'll have to try and work out a
detailed re-analysis.

FWIW I think he has one or two decent points to make, but makes then in a
way that camoflages them in a forest of dubious claims, mountains out of
molehills, etc. I think the phrase for this is a "curate's egg". :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Keith G wrote:

Oh dear oh dear!

Sorry to be on your case today, my little Molton Larva, but all this yap
from you about *hi*fi and distortion etc. and you're running a fekkin' Quad
405!! Priceless!! Which one - the 405-2?

Actually Im not running the Quad at present - I broke it about a year
ago and have had neither the time nor money to rebuild it.

Mine is a Mk I, and yes, it does struggle a *LITTLE* driving very
difficult loads at high power, however I dont generally run at those
levels anyhow.

I'm partway through a rebuild which combines 405-2 current limiting, 606
style output, and halves the input gain. I'll be making my own PCBs.
basically a Mk 2.5

Anyway, go to http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/655/ and
follow the links at the bottom of the page......

Not a very good review. no real figures at all, in fact "we thought the
treble sucked but couldnt actually measure this" was all they really had
to say. the 405-2 review seems to say just what I did - 'Very competant
amp but nothing superleague'

(Didn't they also double as bun-warmers....???)

It does get warm, but I think 'bun dryer-outer' is all you could really say.

Ya hafta fekkin' larf...... :-)

Heh. my current amp is an AIWA A25 which used to belong to me dad. The
poor thing does struggle on me radfords though (30% volume maxes it out)

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

Oh dear oh dear!

Sorry to be on your case today, my little Molton Larva, but all this yap
from you about *hi*fi and distortion etc. and you're running a fekkin'
Quad 405!! Priceless!! Which one - the 405-2?

Actually Im not running the Quad at present - I broke it about a year ago
and have had neither the time nor money to rebuild it.

Mine is a Mk I, and yes, it does struggle a *LITTLE* driving very
difficult loads at high power, however I dont generally run at those
levels anyhow.

I'm partway through a rebuild which combines 405-2 current limiting, 606
style output, and halves the input gain. I'll be making my own PCBs.
basically a Mk 2.5

Anyway, go to http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/655/ and
follow the links at the bottom of the page......

Not a very good review. no real figures at all, in fact "we thought the
treble sucked but couldnt actually measure this" was all they really had
to say. the 405-2 review seems to say just what I did - 'Very competant
amp but nothing superleague'

(Didn't they also double as bun-warmers....???)

It does get warm, but I think 'bun dryer-outer' is all you could really
say.

Ya hafta fekkin' larf...... :-)

Heh. my current amp is an AIWA A25 which used to belong to me dad. The
poor thing does struggle on me radfords though (30% volume maxes it out)


OK, fair enough all that - one thing us *valveheads* never normally do is
get all hot and sweaty about other people's choice of kit and their
reason(s) for using it - unless we get pushed into an 'aggressively
defensive' situation. I had a couple of 33/303/FM3 combos that I loved and
would have kept them if I had room for all the stuff I've tinkered with over
the last few years and hadn't needed the proceeds for p/x purposes....

Anyway, I've had me instructions - I've been told to stop punting valves and
valve gear as its pushing prices up apparently......!!! :-)

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:28:08 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
Bob Latham wrote:

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps
around
I think I could just about swallow that.

There probably a fair number of them. *I* certainly havent auditioned
anywhere close to enough amps to say so.

I'd guess my Quad405 is probably up there in the 'pretty decent' range,
although nowhere near the top of it...


Oh dear oh dear!

Sorry to be on your case today, my little Molton Larva, but all this yap
from you about *hi*fi and distortion etc. and you're running a fekkin' Quad
405!! Priceless!! Which one - the 405-2?

Anyway, go to http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/655/ and
follow the links at the bottom of the page......

(Didn't they also double as bun-warmers....???)

Ya hafta fekkin' larf...... :-)

Only if you're a hyena, or someone of equivalent intelligence.........

Within its current limit, the 405 (the -2 really just has higher
current limiting) is an extremely linear amp, and fully meets the
'sounds like any other good amp' criterion.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering