What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:04:04 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


I'm wary of terms like 'true bass' given that, at best, 'hifi' is a
*depiction* of 'real sound' - but, surely it doesn't need to be repeated
that nobody in his right mind would seek 'true bass' from horns or
bookshelf
speakers....???


It does sound a lot nicer, though. And it certainly doesn't sound like
"a lot of bass". And why do you think that nobody in his right mind
would seek true bass from *any* speaker? It is an entirely reasonable
thing to seek.



No, try it this way round - why would people seeking 'true bass' from a
speaker choose the wrong tool for the job...??


That I can see. I do want true bass though - I'm different, I suppose.



OK, just for you ( I know how much you like them) I've recorded the track
that immediately springs to mind for 'isolated' treble. It has been posted
before but I think you will find it is better miked now:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/mic.JPG

- than it was before, on the poor little lapel mic! There's a lot less
'room' in the equation (almost none) which, of course, means the bass is
less than I get to hear for real as my bass comes off the walls, but there
is at least some indication of it. See below for the relevance....

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Track10.mp3


This is really hard to judge, because the track is entirely synthetic
- I have no internal sound picture to compare it with. It does seem to
me though that the bottom end of the bass just isn't there.

I do not ordinarily like to hear 'treble' or 'bass', I like a sound which
Swim describes as *balanced* - that is 'cohesive' in audio terms, I
believe...?? The only exception to that is a 'proper organ' when I like to
*feel* the bass and, as I have said 28,000 times now, I don't expect to get
that from horns the size I have in the room the size mine is. (Later on, if
I get time, I'm going to hook up to the Ruarks and 'revisit' a couple of my
organ discs!!)


Balance is everything - you should be unaware of all parts of the
spectrum. If you are noticing treble or bass, they are simply wrong.
That is all part of my advice to people buying speakers - if they make
you go "wow", just walk on by - they are crap.

In fact, as I have said before, I quickly accomodate the various sounds from
my system and various radios (car/bathroom/garage) very quickly and tend not
to be listening to the kit. Best example of this is out in my garage where I
frequently enjoy R3 of an afternoon from a decent little Roberts radio - I
hear the music only and never give a thought to the radio itself..!!

I have a couple of Roberts of my own for exactly those purposes, and
they are great. But if I am sitting down of an evening to actually
listen to some music, they simply don't do the job.

KEF
Tannoy
Wharfedale
Quad
Dynaudio
Ruark
JM-Labs
B&W
Jamo (Concert 8s)
Rogers

plus probably others I can't recall...??


Yup, some good names there.



Yes, all the same but different with skightly different strengths and
weaknesses - all of which I could live with if I had to, all of which I have
rejected...

Well, from my point of view it is a shame you didn't persevere.




You'll get away with that - if I had posted it, I'd damn soon have a couple
of hot little faces telling me that it's probably 'builders's blindness' or
somesuch....


I know all too well about builder's blindness. But there is slightly
more to it than that. I built a design that simply isn't available to
the manufacturer, and guarantees a smooth response with no honking
humps.


OK, here's one for you and for 'someone else' to throw rocks at: Last week,
quite out of the blue, I bumped into an old friend I hadn't seen for about
TWENTY years!! And, yes, he lives only a couple of miles from here, which
would have been a tragedy (as we have been here ourselves for getting for 10
years) *if* we had a lot more in common than we appear now to do!! (??) (I'm
getting a little too old for ****-ups and skirt-chasing now!! ;-)

Naturally, he got a demo of my kit (for at least 20 seconds - no interest in
it whatsoever) of the track posted above when I got the standard 'Woah,
that's nice and clear!' immediate reaction and then 'Here's comes a bit of
'bottom end!' a few moments later. Then switch off and no further reference
to it.


That is exactly the response I would expect. The initial reaction to
any system with an exaggeration of any particular part of the
frequency range is fairly predictable. That is well known to recording
engineers who use the fact to inject the right mood into their
product.

Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again recorded
from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison....



Bring 'em on!

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:22:47 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Keith G" wrote


Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again
recorded from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison....



Also, what do you reckon to this little bugger:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...0656&rd=1&rd=1


- that's about 200 quid less than normal retail and half the price of a
Russian Nevaton equivalent (which are unobtainable anyway)....??

One or two good reviews on the Net from people who I suspect wouldn't *dare*
to back a crock in public (independent Yank recording studios, mostly), here
and there...??



I reckon you now have your fair share of cardioids - and you have much
greater flexibility when you have them in separate bodies. I'd leave
this monster where it is.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
As the the utter ******** regarding the mention of Top C on a piano - do
you think I *invented* the phrase 'inaudible for most purposes'...??

Doesn't matter whether you did or not - quoting it would suggest you
believe it.

Or, to put it your way: So you don't know that progressively higher
orders of harmonics become increasingly inaudible...??

Do you understand what a sine wave is?

If the harmonics from a musical instrument were unimportant then top C
from a piano would sound exactly the same as from a violin. Of course
perhaps they do on your setup...

--
*Middle age is when it takes longer to rest than to get tired.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:22:47 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Keith G" wrote


Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again
recorded from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison....



Also, what do you reckon to this little bugger:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...0656&rd=1&rd=1


- that's about 200 quid less than normal retail and half the price of a
Russian Nevaton equivalent (which are unobtainable anyway)....??

One or two good reviews on the Net from people who I suspect wouldn't
*dare*
to back a crock in public (independent Yank recording studios, mostly),
here
and there...??



I reckon you now have your fair share of cardioids - and you have much
greater flexibility when you have them in separate bodies. I'd leave
this monster where it is.



I wasn't thinking for use as a simple cardoid - it's multi-pattern/stereo
and appears to be quite good for various techniques like M/S and X/Y
(Stereosonic/Blumlein??):

http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/pdf...CTS%20LSD2.pdf

http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/lsd2.html


(No funds atm in any case.....)


OK, I'll set up on the Ruarks now - although a quick burst of the same track
just now sounded like ****, I thought....

While you're waiting, have a pop at this - play it twice, the joke's OK but
the laughter just cracks me up!! :-)

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...e-cricket1.mp3


(Kerry O'Keefe :-)

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:23:13 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:22:47 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Keith G" wrote


Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again
recorded from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison....



Also, what do you reckon to this little bugger:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...0656&rd=1&rd=1


- that's about 200 quid less than normal retail and half the price of a
Russian Nevaton equivalent (which are unobtainable anyway)....??

One or two good reviews on the Net from people who I suspect wouldn't
*dare*
to back a crock in public (independent Yank recording studios, mostly),
here
and there...??



I reckon you now have your fair share of cardioids - and you have much
greater flexibility when you have them in separate bodies. I'd leave
this monster where it is.



I wasn't thinking for use as a simple cardoid - it's multi-pattern/stereo
and appears to be quite good for various techniques like M/S and X/Y
(Stereosonic/Blumlein??):

http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/pdf...CTS%20LSD2.pdf

http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/lsd2.html


(No funds atm in any case.....)

Well, I would still get another pair of mics - omni probably. You can
still do all the miking techniques with what you have. Also this one
is a bit noisy.

The frog is saved - thank you!

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
As the the utter ******** regarding the mention of Top C on a piano - do
you think I *invented* the phrase 'inaudible for most purposes'...??

Doesn't matter whether you did or not - quoting it would suggest you
believe it.

Or, to put it your way: So you don't know that progressively higher
orders of harmonics become increasingly inaudible...??

Do you understand what a sine wave is?

If the harmonics from a musical instrument were unimportant then top C
from a piano would sound exactly the same as from a violin. Of course
perhaps they do on your setup...



Didn't take you long, did it...??

:-)

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 11:23:13 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:22:47 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Keith G" wrote


Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again
recorded from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison....



Also, what do you reckon to this little bugger:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...0656&rd=1&rd=1


- that's about 200 quid less than normal retail and half the price of a
Russian Nevaton equivalent (which are unobtainable anyway)....??

One or two good reviews on the Net from people who I suspect wouldn't
*dare*
to back a crock in public (independent Yank recording studios, mostly),
here
and there...??



I reckon you now have your fair share of cardioids - and you have much
greater flexibility when you have them in separate bodies. I'd leave
this monster where it is.



I wasn't thinking for use as a simple cardoid - it's multi-pattern/stereo
and appears to be quite good for various techniques like M/S and X/Y
(Stereosonic/Blumlein??):

http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/pdf...CTS%20LSD2.pdf

http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/lsd2.html


(No funds atm in any case.....)

Well, I would still get another pair of mics - omni probably. You can
still do all the miking techniques with what you have. Also this one
is a bit noisy.


OK.

Ignore me - I'm only musing out loud.....

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:04:04 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


OK, here's one for you and for 'someone else' to throw rocks at: Last
week,
quite out of the blue, I bumped into an old friend I hadn't seen for about
TWENTY years!! And, yes, he lives only a couple of miles from here, which
would have been a tragedy (as we have been here ourselves for getting for
10
years) *if* we had a lot more in common than we appear now to do!! (??)
(I'm
getting a little too old for ****-ups and skirt-chasing now!! ;-)

Naturally, he got a demo of my kit (for at least 20 seconds - no interest
in
it whatsoever) of the track posted above when I got the standard 'Woah,
that's nice and clear!' immediate reaction and then 'Here's comes a bit of
'bottom end!' a few moments later. Then switch off and no further
reference
to it.


That is exactly the response I would expect. The initial reaction to
any system with an exaggeration of any particular part of the
frequency range is fairly predictable. That is well known to recording
engineers who use the fact to inject the right mood into their
product.



No....

The truth is the speakers are so *clear and direct* it's quite breathtaking.
They are 'stunning' in a totally *non spectacular* way - ie they are so
comfortable to listen to....



Indicate when you have got/heard that track and I'll post it again
recorded
from my Ruarks a little later on, for comparison....



Bring 'em on!


OK, here we go - this is the setup:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Setup%2001.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Setup%2002.JPG

and here is the track:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...,%20SE1As).mp3

....and here's the Lowther track again for direct comparison (if anyone else
is interested):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Track10.mp3


Now, before you tell me there's no bass on the Ruark track either - when I
started it off I went over to the back door for a fag (as I do) and rested
my elbow on the (patio door) pull handle. At about 1 minute in, the fekking
door started thrumming and I was getting the bass through my elbow as well
as hearing it!! (The Paladins quote 38 Hz at the bottom end...)

As it's ****ing with rain here (on and off) I don't feel too guilty about
this sort of dicking around - while I'm set up on the Ruarks what else would
you rather hear? Gimme a slot and I'll see what I've got that best fits it!
(Sorry if it's a bit sad, but I enjoy it and it's good practice for me!! ;-)

Now, if nothing else, the recordings *look* a lot better these days, don't
they?? :-)

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Frankly, the numbers don't mean very much at all in the
real world, other than to a designer or manufacturer -
for example, the frequency range of a full orchestra is
only about 40-14k and the *dink dink* 'Top C' on a piano
is only about 4096 Hz with only weak (inaudible for most
purposes) harmonics extending beyond 10 kHz....

If the harmonics were inaudible it would sound like a
sine wave. So nothing like a piano at all.

I'm amazed at you. You go on and on about the subtle
differences you claim to hear then come up with rubbish
like this...

More to the point, is the lack of quality of reproduction that we get at
high frequencies by single-way drivers.

There are hard physical laws that say you can't have deep bass and high
efficiency and small size at the same time. If you add good dynamic range,
then things get that much more difficult.

In a similar fashion, you can't have deep bass, extended treble, smooth
response, and broad dispersion at the same time.

I still remember doing some frequency response measurements on a "full
range" JBL 15" driver in engineerings school in the middlee 1960s. Believe
it or not, it had response at 13 KHz. But only on-axis. And only after a
number of audible dips and peaks at lower frequencies.

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:22:47 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Also, what do you reckon to this little bugger:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...0656&rd=1&rd=1

Seems to be a convenient package. It looks neat.

Self-noise is actually high enough to be of concern.

For half the price I'd have a pair of Rhode NT1A, which I indeed already
have. Quieter, and probably smoother.

I have a mount for coincident micing that cost about $15.

- that's about 200 quid less than normal retail and half
the price of a Russian Nevaton equivalent (which are
unobtainable anyway)....??

One or two good reviews on the Net from people who I
suspect wouldn't *dare* to back a crock in public
(independent Yank recording studios, mostly), here and
there...??

I reckon you now have your fair share of cardioids - and
you have much greater flexibility when you have them in
separate bodies. I'd leave this monster where it is.