What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
I have reservations about 'commercial kits' but the point with
well-known, established *designs* is that they will be very often built
by people who are much more likely to experiment (different drivers,
tweaking crossovers - if nothing else) than people who just scoop up a
commercial speaker - the 'cabinet finish' of a commercial speaker would
deter most people from tampering, for a start!! Also the established
designs very often have a worldwide following of enthusiasts who are in
touch with each other (dedicated websites &c.), so the development
potential is not inconsiderable!!

Many of the very best commercial designs use carefully chosen and
controlled materials for the cabinets. The principle behind this is you
can't eliminate all resonances so incorporate them as part of the design.
The Spendor BC1 being a prime example - and it's by no means the only one.
The home maker simply hasn't the facilities for such choices - even MDF
varies from one maker to another.

--
*Never put off until tomorrow what you can avoid altogether *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:
I'm sure 'builder's blindness' comes into the equation, but most
homebrew speaker builders don't stop at just the one pair - even I
have built 6 pairs now and am well aware of how they stack up/compare!!

Sack time now.....


But were your builds a developmental progression, examining the
shortcomings of previous models and redesigning the next to address
the details? Or have you just built a LOT of speakers? There is a big
difference. I mean, what is to say your second pair wasn't a whole lot
better than the fifth?

It's what I find hard to accept from Mr G. As each speaker is completed
it's a breath of fresh air or whatever with all and sundry agreeing it's
the best thing they've ever heard. Only to be ousted by the next one which
follows in short order. ;-)

--
*7up is good for you, signed snow white*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

It's what I find hard to accept from Mr G. As each speaker is completed

it's a breath of fresh air or whatever with all and sundry agreeing
it's
the best thing they've ever heard. Only to be ousted by the next one
which
follows in short order. ;-)

Well, Keith's undeniable enthusiasm for life may be catching when
people visit. Or could be in the drinks cabinet - requires a steady
increase in the quality of the single malts. We must be up to
Lagavullin 18 years by now............

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 02:45:41 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

I have reservations about 'commercial kits' but the point with well-known,
established *designs* is that they will be very often built by people who
are much more likely to experiment (different drivers, tweaking
crossovers -
if nothing else) than people who just scoop up a commercial speaker - the
'cabinet finish' of a commercial speaker would deter most people from
tampering, for a start!! Also the established designs very often have a
worldwide following of enthusiasts who are in touch with each other
(dedicated websites &c.), so the development potential is not
inconsiderable!!



As for the total homebrew, of course, you are in the lap of the gods,
but your critical faculties might be delayed just a bit before
springing into action ;-)


I'm sure 'builder's blindness' comes into the equation, but most homebrew
speaker builders don't stop at just the one pair - even I have built 6
pairs
now and am well aware of how they stack up/compare!!

Sack time now.....


But were your builds a developmental progression, examining the
shortcomings of previous models and redesigning the next to address
the details? Or have you just built a LOT of speakers? There is a big
difference. I mean, what is to say your second pair wasn't a whole lot
better than the fifth?



No, 5 out of the 6 pairs I have built were well-established designs and I
built them strictly according to plan. The other pair were a 'tweaked'
version of an established/recommended design, but I don't have the
knowledge/time/inclination to experiment much, other than with wadding/or
not and different drivers. The structural variables are greater than my
ability to encompass them - old dog, new shoes &c. and happy enough to go
with the same wheel someone else has been using for a number of years...!!
(Different story if I was a lot younger and still had a brain that worked...
:-)

The speakers were not a definite progression in terms of effectiveness,
either - the very first pair still hold their own against the others but
they are too intrinsically different to make direct comparisons. Pair No. 4
have been booted out now as the least effective/useful (at least for the
moment) which is a nuisance as they the ones that have been heard most by a
few here. They only need a correction network but I'm resisting it as, like
I said to Andy, I can see it leading to endless tweaking and ****ing about
on a 'better or worse?' basis!! (Maybe later... ;-)

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:29:49 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 02:45:41 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

I have reservations about 'commercial kits' but the point with well-known,
established *designs* is that they will be very often built by people who
are much more likely to experiment (different drivers, tweaking
crossovers -
if nothing else) than people who just scoop up a commercial speaker - the
'cabinet finish' of a commercial speaker would deter most people from
tampering, for a start!! Also the established designs very often have a
worldwide following of enthusiasts who are in touch with each other
(dedicated websites &c.), so the development potential is not
inconsiderable!!



As for the total homebrew, of course, you are in the lap of the gods,
but your critical faculties might be delayed just a bit before
springing into action ;-)


I'm sure 'builder's blindness' comes into the equation, but most homebrew
speaker builders don't stop at just the one pair - even I have built 6
pairs
now and am well aware of how they stack up/compare!!

Sack time now.....


But were your builds a developmental progression, examining the
shortcomings of previous models and redesigning the next to address
the details? Or have you just built a LOT of speakers? There is a big
difference. I mean, what is to say your second pair wasn't a whole lot
better than the fifth?



No, 5 out of the 6 pairs I have built were well-established designs and I
built them strictly according to plan. The other pair were a 'tweaked'
version of an established/recommended design, but I don't have the
knowledge/time/inclination to experiment much, other than with wadding/or
not and different drivers. The structural variables are greater than my
ability to encompass them - old dog, new shoes &c. and happy enough to go
with the same wheel someone else has been using for a number of years...!!
(Different story if I was a lot younger and still had a brain that worked...
:-)

The speakers were not a definite progression in terms of effectiveness,
either - the very first pair still hold their own against the others but
they are too intrinsically different to make direct comparisons. Pair No. 4
have been booted out now as the least effective/useful (at least for the
moment) which is a nuisance as they the ones that have been heard most by a
few here. They only need a correction network but I'm resisting it as, like
I said to Andy, I can see it leading to endless tweaking and ****ing about
on a 'better or worse?' basis!! (Maybe later... ;-)



Ah, so you have adopted the Taguchi method, whereby you change many
variables at once rather than just one at a time. It is a kind of
evolutionary system, but you have to be really ruthless in kicking out
the crap. :-)

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
oups.com...
It's what I find hard to accept from Mr G. As each speaker is completed

it's a breath of fresh air or whatever with all and sundry agreeing
it's
the best thing they've ever heard. Only to be ousted by the next one
which
follows in short order. ;-)

Well, Keith's undeniable enthusiasm for life may be catching when
people visit. Or could be in the drinks cabinet - requires a steady
increase in the quality of the single malts. We must be up to
Lagavullin 18 years by now............



Ignore Plowie, he's only repeating my reports of the *one* person (Pat the
****) who has been here for virtually every build has gone 'wow' and left
muttering that he will build a pair of the last speakers he's heard! (Only a
week or so ago, I gather P the T was borrowing a pair of LS 3/5As from
another regular visitor here and raving about them also - I don't think
he'll *ever* settle on a final pair!!)

I, OTOH, rarely give the game away with enthusiasm or otherwise - I have
been/was a very successful negotiator for a number of decades and know how
to 'work' a situation to get to whatever reality there may be in it! In the
case of the speakers, trust me - I am more interested in hearing what people
*really* think than pushing my own opinion on to them!

(Hint: I have never yet *sold* a pair of speakers! ;-)

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:29:49 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 02:45:41 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

I have reservations about 'commercial kits' but the point with
well-known,
established *designs* is that they will be very often built by people
who
are much more likely to experiment (different drivers, tweaking
crossovers -
if nothing else) than people who just scoop up a commercial speaker -
the
'cabinet finish' of a commercial speaker would deter most people from
tampering, for a start!! Also the established designs very often have a
worldwide following of enthusiasts who are in touch with each other
(dedicated websites &c.), so the development potential is not
inconsiderable!!



As for the total homebrew, of course, you are in the lap of the gods,
but your critical faculties might be delayed just a bit before
springing into action ;-)


I'm sure 'builder's blindness' comes into the equation, but most
homebrew
speaker builders don't stop at just the one pair - even I have built 6
pairs
now and am well aware of how they stack up/compare!!

Sack time now.....


But were your builds a developmental progression, examining the
shortcomings of previous models and redesigning the next to address
the details? Or have you just built a LOT of speakers? There is a big
difference. I mean, what is to say your second pair wasn't a whole lot
better than the fifth?



No, 5 out of the 6 pairs I have built were well-established designs and I
built them strictly according to plan. The other pair were a 'tweaked'
version of an established/recommended design, but I don't have the
knowledge/time/inclination to experiment much, other than with wadding/or
not and different drivers. The structural variables are greater than my
ability to encompass them - old dog, new shoes &c. and happy enough to go
with the same wheel someone else has been using for a number of years...!!
(Different story if I was a lot younger and still had a brain that
worked...
:-)

The speakers were not a definite progression in terms of effectiveness,
either - the very first pair still hold their own against the others but
they are too intrinsically different to make direct comparisons. Pair No.
4
have been booted out now as the least effective/useful (at least for the
moment) which is a nuisance as they the ones that have been heard most by
a
few here. They only need a correction network but I'm resisting it as,
like
I said to Andy, I can see it leading to endless tweaking and ****ing about
on a 'better or worse?' basis!! (Maybe later... ;-)



Ah, so you have adopted the Taguchi method, whereby you change many
variables at once rather than just one at a time. It is a kind of
evolutionary system, but you have to be really ruthless in kicking out
the crap. :-)



Sure, but the 'freedom' exists in there being no constraints of expectation,
so they can be kicked out without too much stress if necessary.

Your advice to the poster Sharad (way above) is perfectly correct, but the
alternative would work just as well: Buy a pair of stunning-looking speakers
that you really can *not* afford (divorce-inducing) with a truly 'world
class' name (Bosendorfer, Sonus Faber, Wilson &c.) and learn to ignore their
shortcomings - just like you would with a pair of cardboard Wharfedales, if
you had more sense than money....!!

It's like with cars, throughout my life, I have preferred to buy an enormous
number of totally different cars (more out of curiosity than anything else)
than try and work through 'improved' variants of the same make/model..!!
(With a V12 Jag at the 'top' of the list, I guess, all I would say is the
'best' cars have not been the *best* cars*..!! ;-)

Most successful make of car in my life..? - Suzuki, without a doubt, but I
wouldn't want one now.....

(Swim, OTOH, had had the same car for at least 15 years and won't be parted
from it!)

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
I have reservations about 'commercial kits' but the point with
well-known, established *designs* is that they will be very often built
by people who are much more likely to experiment (different drivers,
tweaking crossovers - if nothing else) than people who just scoop up a
commercial speaker - the 'cabinet finish' of a commercial speaker would
deter most people from tampering, for a start!! Also the established
designs very often have a worldwide following of enthusiasts who are in
touch with each other (dedicated websites &c.), so the development
potential is not inconsiderable!!

Many of the very best commercial designs use carefully chosen and
controlled materials for the cabinets. The principle behind this is you
can't eliminate all resonances so incorporate them as part of the design.
The Spendor BC1 being a prime example - and it's by no means the only one.
The home maker simply hasn't the facilities for such choices - even MDF
varies from one maker to another.


Hmm...

I thought you were too busy to reply to my crap....??

Anyway, do stop trying to make yourself look good by telling me stuff I (and
most everyone else here) already know - I'm well aware of the different
approaches to cabinet resonances adopted by different makers and have even
had a pair of 'thinwall' Rogers BBC Studio Monitors here, myself. I've told
you before (only recently) - there's nothing you know that I either don't
know already or need to know, OK?

As to consistency of components and materials used in speaker manufacturer -
tell me you *wouldn't* prefer a pair of speakers with consecutive serial
numbers....??

(But then, I don't even need to know that....!! :-)

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

Keith G wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
I have reservations about 'commercial kits' but the point with
well-known, established *designs* is that they will be very often built
by people who are much more likely to experiment (different drivers,
tweaking crossovers - if nothing else) than people who just scoop up a
commercial speaker - the 'cabinet finish' of a commercial speaker would
deter most people from tampering, for a start!! Also the established
designs very often have a worldwide following of enthusiasts who are in
touch with each other (dedicated websites &c.), so the development
potential is not inconsiderable!!
Many of the very best commercial designs use carefully chosen and
controlled materials for the cabinets. The principle behind this is you
can't eliminate all resonances so incorporate them as part of the design.
The Spendor BC1 being a prime example - and it's by no means the only one.
The home maker simply hasn't the facilities for such choices - even MDF
varies from one maker to another.


Hmm...

I thought you were too busy to reply to my crap....??

Anyway, do stop trying to make yourself look good by telling me stuff I (and
most everyone else here) already know - I'm well aware of the different
approaches to cabinet resonances adopted by different makers and have even
had a pair of 'thinwall' Rogers BBC Studio Monitors here, myself. I've told
you before (only recently) - there's nothing you know that I either don't
know already or need to know, OK?

As to consistency of components and materials used in speaker manufacturer -
tell me you *wouldn't* prefer a pair of speakers with consecutive serial
numbers....??

(But then, I don't even need to know that....!! :-)



Keith,

You own a pair of Rogers BBC studio Monitors and you're persisting with
your single driver horns?

Staggered

S.

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:08:20 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

Ah, so you have adopted the Taguchi method, whereby you change many
variables at once rather than just one at a time. It is a kind of
evolutionary system, but you have to be really ruthless in kicking out
the crap. :-)



Sure, but the 'freedom' exists in there being no constraints of expectation,
so they can be kicked out without too much stress if necessary.

Your advice to the poster Sharad (way above) is perfectly correct, but the
alternative would work just as well: Buy a pair of stunning-looking speakers
that you really can *not* afford (divorce-inducing) with a truly 'world
class' name (Bosendorfer, Sonus Faber, Wilson &c.) and learn to ignore their
shortcomings - just like you would with a pair of cardboard Wharfedales, if
you had more sense than money....!!


Well I have my Sonus Fabers (Amator), and I listen to them with no
sense of any shortcomings I have to ignore. They are by now
seamlessly integrated with the sub, so all I have to do is switch on
and start listening.

It's like with cars, throughout my life, I have preferred to buy an enormous
number of totally different cars (more out of curiosity than anything else)
than try and work through 'improved' variants of the same make/model..!!
(With a V12 Jag at the 'top' of the list, I guess, all I would say is the
'best' cars have not been the *best* cars*..!! ;-)


I've had my share too - I used to go rallying in mki Escorts (RS1600
era) and I've been through the usual suspects since. But I'm happiest
with my current car which I've owned longer than any other - Audi S4
Avant (the Avant bit is the key).

Most successful make of car in my life..? - Suzuki, without a doubt, but I
wouldn't want one now.....

(Swim, OTOH, had had the same car for at least 15 years and won't be parted
from it!)



Like an old pair of slippers!

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com