On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 01:31:56 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

"Ian Molton" wrote

Please, enough of that - Im not stupid and dont need to be talked
down to.

Forgive me - your apostrophic deficiencies imply otherwise.... :-)

Pure laziness, I assure you...

Few say so...

Ok, it looks like a point is being missed.

Given you already know you cant *measure* 'quality', which is your
subjective views on a systems sound, there is only one way to 'rate' an
amp, and that is to determine how accurately it can reproduce a waveform
on its output that differs only in amplitude from its input (into any
given speakers). There is simply nothing else to measure. All else is,
completely, utterly subjective.

Thus when people talk about how good a piece of kit is relative to any
other, they *must* talk in terms of this accuracy, as to compare
subjective opinions of the kit is just plain meaningless. Who knows -
some people may even *like* crossover distortion and class C amps.

The 'valve' vs 'solid state' argument, is, thus, completely moot - the
only measure you can apply is that above, and so you cannot claim an amp
with an inferior output (in those terms) is better.

wether you like one amp better or not is irrelevant in such a
comparison. Heck, many people choose their amp and speakers based on
their size, or even less tangible traits such as 'coolness'.

Who TF gives a rat's arse about 'accurate reproduction' if it ain't
*musical*?

Well, Im sure you'll be the first to admit that the best possible sound is obtained from sitting in front of the musicians.

Thus, a 100% accurate reproduction will sound 100% like the real thing.

Of course if you like to turn the bass up (effectively distorting the signal) then you may CHOOSE to rate the system as 110% as good as the original, but you can hardly claim your listening preference is more musical than the original musicians.

(unless you listen to something like britney spears or summat)

- I'm in the business of entertaining myself, not supplying
myself with fekkin' laboratory data!

Ditto, which is why, when watching that scene in LoTR where sauron 'explodes' I turn my tone controls from 'neutral' to 'thundering bass'.

Im not about to claim I made the soundtrack more, um, musical, though...

If you like the valve sound, you might as well be honest and admit
you like a good gob of distortion,

Be 'honest'??? What is it with all you SS 'purists'? You want us
valvey types to break down in some sort of confessional hysteria about
our'weaknesses'???

No. not really. Unless it turns you on or something ;-)

just stop saying its 'better' or 'more musical' please (bear in mind this applies to any nonlinear system, not just nonlinear valve amps).

You might like it better, but unless it sounds more like the original than another system, more musical it aint.

On a slightly different track... There is a point to be made in that some recordings 'sound' is so utterly 'classic' and 'well known' that its accepted that the recording is supposed to sound like that - eg. a lot of pop and rock that was recorded onto vinyl. People just expect it to sound like vinyl, and one way of getting that sound is simply to play records (on a non-linear amp if thats part of the expected sound, too).

There is *nothing* that says a linear system with a clean digital source cant sound identical, but you have to play the right signal into its inputs if you want the right output...

I got news for you - *all* hifi gear distorts to some degree

Some audibly, some not.

Yup, 'valvelike' is one of the popular buzzwords in the hifi comix
atm.

implying that either transistor amps now sound like a hypothrtically linear valve amp, or a linear transistor amp has been made to sound like a nonlinear valve amp. Take your pick ;-)

If only they would - the reality is that they usually come full-on in
some sort of 'apocryphal' way trying desparately to make us see the
'error of our ways'. (I think they feel threatened...)

If you would use words like 'linear' instead of 'SS' or 'sounds better to me' instead of 'its more musical' I suspect you'd get a much less hostile reaction.

just don't try telling me SS (amps) sound better
because they don't AFAIAC!! OK?

In many cases the only measurable quantity is better in the SS amp (is seems its easier to design a basically 'OK' transistor amp, compared to a basically 'OK' valve amp). Saying it 'sounds better' when its clearly distorting the sound compared to the original is just wrong. Simply say you prefer the sound, its not an absolute and its clearly subjective.

And my brother in law lives in Cheshire - small world innit?

only a few thousand miles across...



--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:54:54 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:55:33 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

Yeah, but 'exactly the same way' means that they have to have the same
distortion characteristics.

Yup.

Ok, so now you agreed that driving the same voltage on the speaker
terminals will cause the speaker to move the same way, given that the amps
PSU is up to it, then:

The amps PSU has nothing to do with it, as any effects there will mean
that the voltages at the speaker terminals are *not* the same.

You don't sell insurance for a living by any chance, do you?

:-)


1) Explain why a SS amp could not drive the voltages in the same way as a
valve one

Forgetting that little magic word, are we??

Actually, the question is why a tube amp is incapable of accurately
amplifying its input voltage, and the answer lies in low gain and
transformers.

2) At what point do you declare differences to be inaudible?

When you can't hear them under level-matched blind conditions. There
should be a 'duh' in there somewhere..................

Out on the back step - all the way indoors, up to the patio door, I can tell
without any problem. Once outside, it starts to become less obvious -
specially if I'm cutting the grass (petrol mower).....

Yeah, riiiiiight. Oddly enough, I can hear the crappy sound of valves
at a fair distance, too................

equipment exists that can measure down to about -140dB - are you
suggesting the 'valve sound' comes from sub -140dB artifcats ?

Nah, 'valve sound' comes from even-order distortion at a per cent or
two, and microphonic reverberation at say 60 dB below the main signal,
combined with soft clipping because 'audiophile' valve amps are
gutless. Nothing esoteric or below the noise floor at all. Those
select few valve amps which do *not* suffer such problems (think C-J
Premier or ARC Reference) sound exactly the same as good SS amps.

We're bird-feeders - I see any artifcats round here they get an apple (when
available or handful of peanuts, if not) chucked at them!

An air rifle is more effective, handy for craftyrats, too.........

perhaps this is why speaker wire makes a difference - maybe they were
right after all!

It doesn't, dood!

OK, enough ****ing about.

Ian, it's no big deal - you either *get* valves or you don't. Not everybody
does, so don't bash yer brains out. It's not easy to describe the
'difference' without resorting to subjective phrases like 'space', air',
'texture', 'vitality', 'musicality' or whatever.

Sure it is - see above.

These phrases immediately
draw a (usually hostile) reaction from the unbelievers and the strange
phenomenon of valves and SS becoming antagonistic and mutually exclusive
starts to appear. (A load of ********, given that I've had an SS amp driven
by valve pre's on the go today! - See

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...w/sharkey1.MOV

for a ****e little movie of this in action! :-)

Also the 'science' involved is a) mostly way over my head and b) not clearly
agreed on by any significany majority of the theorists. All I can say is if
you haven't spent any time with a valve amp yourself, get a good listen and
see if it does anything for you.

Been there, done that. Nice pleasant sound, even on ****e recordings,
hence not high fidelity. Also softens really great recordings, so
****e sound, basically.

Knowing this don't happen on every street corner, I often say people I
*know* on this group are welcome to come and hear mine (and take the ****,
if that's what they want) if it's doable. (I'm in Cambridgeshire right on
the A1, where are you? - Cornwall, I expect, given your predilection for
dragons!)

Yep, and regulars are welcome to come to my place just south of
Nottingham, to hear what a good recording really *should* sound like!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:54:54 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:55:33 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

Yeah, but 'exactly the same way' means that they have to have the same
distortion characteristics.

Yup.

Ok, so now you agreed that driving the same voltage on the speaker
terminals will cause the speaker to move the same way, given that the amps
PSU is up to it, then:

The amps PSU has nothing to do with it, as any effects there will mean
that the voltages at the speaker terminals are *not* the same.

You don't sell insurance for a living by any chance, do you?

:-)


1) Explain why a SS amp could not drive the voltages in the same way as a
valve one

Forgetting that little magic word, are we??

Actually, the question is why a tube amp is incapable of accurately
amplifying its input voltage, and the answer lies in low gain and
transformers.

2) At what point do you declare differences to be inaudible?

When you can't hear them under level-matched blind conditions. There
should be a 'duh' in there somewhere..................

Out on the back step - all the way indoors, up to the patio door, I can tell
without any problem. Once outside, it starts to become less obvious -
specially if I'm cutting the grass (petrol mower).....

Yeah, riiiiiight. Oddly enough, I can hear the crappy sound of valves
at a fair distance, too................

equipment exists that can measure down to about -140dB - are you
suggesting the 'valve sound' comes from sub -140dB artifcats ?

Nah, 'valve sound' comes from even-order distortion at a per cent or
two, and microphonic reverberation at say 60 dB below the main signal,
combined with soft clipping because 'audiophile' valve amps are
gutless. Nothing esoteric or below the noise floor at all. Those
select few valve amps which do *not* suffer such problems (think C-J
Premier or ARC Reference) sound exactly the same as good SS amps.

We're bird-feeders - I see any artifcats round here they get an apple (when
available or handful of peanuts, if not) chucked at them!

An air rifle is more effective, handy for craftyrats, too.........

perhaps this is why speaker wire makes a difference - maybe they were
right after all!

It doesn't, dood!

OK, enough ****ing about.

Ian, it's no big deal - you either *get* valves or you don't. Not everybody
does, so don't bash yer brains out. It's not easy to describe the
'difference' without resorting to subjective phrases like 'space', air',
'texture', 'vitality', 'musicality' or whatever.

Sure it is - see above.

These phrases immediately
draw a (usually hostile) reaction from the unbelievers and the strange
phenomenon of valves and SS becoming antagonistic and mutually exclusive
starts to appear. (A load of ********, given that I've had an SS amp driven
by valve pre's on the go today! - See

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...w/sharkey1.MOV

for a ****e little movie of this in action! :-)

Also the 'science' involved is a) mostly way over my head and b) not clearly
agreed on by any significany majority of the theorists. All I can say is if
you haven't spent any time with a valve amp yourself, get a good listen and
see if it does anything for you.

Been there, done that. Nice pleasant sound, even on ****e recordings,
hence not high fidelity. Also softens really great recordings, so
****e sound, basically.

Knowing this don't happen on every street corner, I often say people I
*know* on this group are welcome to come and hear mine (and take the ****,
if that's what they want) if it's doable. (I'm in Cambridgeshire right on
the A1, where are you? - Cornwall, I expect, given your predilection for
dragons!)

Yep, and regulars are welcome to come to my place just south of
Nottingham, to hear what a good recording really *should* sound like!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:54:54 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:55:33 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

Yeah, but 'exactly the same way' means that they have to have the same
distortion characteristics.

Yup.

Ok, so now you agreed that driving the same voltage on the speaker
terminals will cause the speaker to move the same way, given that the amps
PSU is up to it, then:

The amps PSU has nothing to do with it, as any effects there will mean
that the voltages at the speaker terminals are *not* the same.

You don't sell insurance for a living by any chance, do you?

:-)


1) Explain why a SS amp could not drive the voltages in the same way as a
valve one

Forgetting that little magic word, are we??

Actually, the question is why a tube amp is incapable of accurately
amplifying its input voltage, and the answer lies in low gain and
transformers.

2) At what point do you declare differences to be inaudible?

When you can't hear them under level-matched blind conditions. There
should be a 'duh' in there somewhere..................

Out on the back step - all the way indoors, up to the patio door, I can tell
without any problem. Once outside, it starts to become less obvious -
specially if I'm cutting the grass (petrol mower).....

Yeah, riiiiiight. Oddly enough, I can hear the crappy sound of valves
at a fair distance, too................

equipment exists that can measure down to about -140dB - are you
suggesting the 'valve sound' comes from sub -140dB artifcats ?

Nah, 'valve sound' comes from even-order distortion at a per cent or
two, and microphonic reverberation at say 60 dB below the main signal,
combined with soft clipping because 'audiophile' valve amps are
gutless. Nothing esoteric or below the noise floor at all. Those
select few valve amps which do *not* suffer such problems (think C-J
Premier or ARC Reference) sound exactly the same as good SS amps.

We're bird-feeders - I see any artifcats round here they get an apple (when
available or handful of peanuts, if not) chucked at them!

An air rifle is more effective, handy for craftyrats, too.........

perhaps this is why speaker wire makes a difference - maybe they were
right after all!

It doesn't, dood!

OK, enough ****ing about.

Ian, it's no big deal - you either *get* valves or you don't. Not everybody
does, so don't bash yer brains out. It's not easy to describe the
'difference' without resorting to subjective phrases like 'space', air',
'texture', 'vitality', 'musicality' or whatever.

Sure it is - see above.

These phrases immediately
draw a (usually hostile) reaction from the unbelievers and the strange
phenomenon of valves and SS becoming antagonistic and mutually exclusive
starts to appear. (A load of ********, given that I've had an SS amp driven
by valve pre's on the go today! - See

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...w/sharkey1.MOV

for a ****e little movie of this in action! :-)

Also the 'science' involved is a) mostly way over my head and b) not clearly
agreed on by any significany majority of the theorists. All I can say is if
you haven't spent any time with a valve amp yourself, get a good listen and
see if it does anything for you.

Been there, done that. Nice pleasant sound, even on ****e recordings,
hence not high fidelity. Also softens really great recordings, so
****e sound, basically.

Knowing this don't happen on every street corner, I often say people I
*know* on this group are welcome to come and hear mine (and take the ****,
if that's what they want) if it's doable. (I'm in Cambridgeshire right on
the A1, where are you? - Cornwall, I expect, given your predilection for
dragons!)

Yep, and regulars are welcome to come to my place just south of
Nottingham, to hear what a good recording really *should* sound like!

And will somebody tell that bugger Molton to trim his line lengths? I
can't afford a 22" widescreen monitor!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:54:54 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:55:33 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

Yeah, but 'exactly the same way' means that they have to have the same
distortion characteristics.

Yup.

Ok, so now you agreed that driving the same voltage on the speaker
terminals will cause the speaker to move the same way, given that the amps
PSU is up to it, then:

The amps PSU has nothing to do with it, as any effects there will mean
that the voltages at the speaker terminals are *not* the same.

You don't sell insurance for a living by any chance, do you?

:-)


1) Explain why a SS amp could not drive the voltages in the same way as a
valve one

Forgetting that little magic word, are we??

Actually, the question is why a tube amp is incapable of accurately
amplifying its input voltage, and the answer lies in low gain and
transformers.

2) At what point do you declare differences to be inaudible?

When you can't hear them under level-matched blind conditions. There
should be a 'duh' in there somewhere..................

Out on the back step - all the way indoors, up to the patio door, I can tell
without any problem. Once outside, it starts to become less obvious -
specially if I'm cutting the grass (petrol mower).....

Yeah, riiiiiight. Oddly enough, I can hear the crappy sound of valves
at a fair distance, too................

equipment exists that can measure down to about -140dB - are you
suggesting the 'valve sound' comes from sub -140dB artifcats ?

Nah, 'valve sound' comes from even-order distortion at a per cent or
two, and microphonic reverberation at say 60 dB below the main signal,
combined with soft clipping because 'audiophile' valve amps are
gutless. Nothing esoteric or below the noise floor at all. Those
select few valve amps which do *not* suffer such problems (think C-J
Premier or ARC Reference) sound exactly the same as good SS amps.

We're bird-feeders - I see any artifcats round here they get an apple (when
available or handful of peanuts, if not) chucked at them!

An air rifle is more effective, handy for craftyrats, too.........

perhaps this is why speaker wire makes a difference - maybe they were
right after all!

It doesn't, dood!

OK, enough ****ing about.

Ian, it's no big deal - you either *get* valves or you don't. Not everybody
does, so don't bash yer brains out. It's not easy to describe the
'difference' without resorting to subjective phrases like 'space', air',
'texture', 'vitality', 'musicality' or whatever.

Sure it is - see above.

These phrases immediately
draw a (usually hostile) reaction from the unbelievers and the strange
phenomenon of valves and SS becoming antagonistic and mutually exclusive
starts to appear. (A load of ********, given that I've had an SS amp driven
by valve pre's on the go today! - See

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...w/sharkey1.MOV

for a ****e little movie of this in action! :-)

Also the 'science' involved is a) mostly way over my head and b) not clearly
agreed on by any significany majority of the theorists. All I can say is if
you haven't spent any time with a valve amp yourself, get a good listen and
see if it does anything for you.

Been there, done that. Nice pleasant sound, even on ****e recordings,
hence not high fidelity. Also softens really great recordings, so
****e sound, basically.

Knowing this don't happen on every street corner, I often say people I
*know* on this group are welcome to come and hear mine (and take the ****,
if that's what they want) if it's doable. (I'm in Cambridgeshire right on
the A1, where are you? - Cornwall, I expect, given your predilection for
dragons!)

Yep, and regulars are welcome to come to my place just south of
Nottingham, to hear what a good recording really *should* sound like!

And will somebody tell that bugger Molton to trim his line lengths? I
can't afford a 22" widescreen monitor!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 01:31:56 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Ian Molton" wrote

If you like the valve sound, you might as well be honest and admit you
like a good gob of distortion,

Be 'honest'??? What is it with all you SS 'purists'? You want us valvey
types to break down in some sort of confessional hysteria about our
'weaknesses'??? I got news for you - *all* hifi gear distorts to some
degree,

No, good equipment does *not* possess any *audible* distortion -
that's why it all sounds the same. There should be a 'duh' in there
somewhere............

compond that distortion with a bad mix of kit and you can easily
spend a lot of money to end up with summat that sounds a damn sight worse
than a Dixon's 'music centre'!!

Yup, there's no doubt that vinyl, valves and horns can do that!

because the 'valve sound' was characterised by the common valve amps, and
not the (more) linear ones.

The same happens in transistor amps too - people still like that 'valve
like sound' and even extremely expensive transistor amps seem to
deliberately cultivate high 2nd harmonic distortion levels.

Name one which does this.

And Molton, trim your bluddy line lengths!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 01:31:56 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Ian Molton" wrote

If you like the valve sound, you might as well be honest and admit you
like a good gob of distortion,

Be 'honest'??? What is it with all you SS 'purists'? You want us valvey
types to break down in some sort of confessional hysteria about our
'weaknesses'??? I got news for you - *all* hifi gear distorts to some
degree,

No, good equipment does *not* possess any *audible* distortion -
that's why it all sounds the same. There should be a 'duh' in there
somewhere............

compond that distortion with a bad mix of kit and you can easily
spend a lot of money to end up with summat that sounds a damn sight worse
than a Dixon's 'music centre'!!

Yup, there's no doubt that vinyl, valves and horns can do that!

because the 'valve sound' was characterised by the common valve amps, and
not the (more) linear ones.

The same happens in transistor amps too - people still like that 'valve
like sound' and even extremely expensive transistor amps seem to
deliberately cultivate high 2nd harmonic distortion levels.

Name one which does this.

And Molton, trim your bluddy line lengths!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote


snip replies to bits I didn't post and some I did



Also the 'science' involved is a) mostly way over my head and b) not
clearly
agreed on by any significany majority of the theorists. All I can say is
if
you haven't spent any time with a valve amp yourself, get a good listen
and
see if it does anything for you.

Been there, done that. Nice pleasant sound, even on ****e recordings,
hence not high fidelity. Also softens really great recordings, so
****e sound, basically.



Hmmm, how does that work - both a 'Nice pleasant sound' and '****e
sound'......???

(An interesting paradox born of extreme prejudice, methinks....)

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote


snip replies to bits I didn't post and some I did



Also the 'science' involved is a) mostly way over my head and b) not
clearly
agreed on by any significany majority of the theorists. All I can say is
if
you haven't spent any time with a valve amp yourself, get a good listen
and
see if it does anything for you.

Been there, done that. Nice pleasant sound, even on ****e recordings,
hence not high fidelity. Also softens really great recordings, so
****e sound, basically.



Hmmm, how does that work - both a 'Nice pleasant sound' and '****e
sound'......???

(An interesting paradox born of extreme prejudice, methinks....)

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote


No, good equipment does *not* possess any *audible* distortion -
that's why it all sounds the same.


Heh heh! Of *course* it does (and all those different designs are just
examples of wasted time and opportunity), but I bet none of it ever
*measures* the same...... :-)

(Funny, when you put whole systems together they never sound the same
though, innit?)



There should be a 'duh' in there
somewhere............


Damn right there should!


which does this.

And Molton, trim your bluddy line lengths!


No, that's OK (that and the absence of 'strophes, pore spelin and Missing
Capitals) - he 'writes code' for a living......

:-)