"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote


No, good equipment does *not* possess any *audible* distortion -
that's why it all sounds the same.


Heh heh! Of *course* it does (and all those different designs are just
examples of wasted time and opportunity), but I bet none of it ever
*measures* the same...... :-)

(Funny, when you put whole systems together they never sound the same
though, innit?)



There should be a 'duh' in there
somewhere............


Damn right there should!


which does this.

And Molton, trim your bluddy line lengths!


No, that's OK (that and the absence of 'strophes, pore spelin and Missing
Capitals) - he 'writes code' for a living......

:-)

"Ian Molton" wrote


Ok, it looks like a point is being missed.


****ing with rain today so it looks like Ill have to spend the day farting
around with my kit and posting more bollox on the group! Ho hum.....

(Who knows? - Perhaps I'll get some floor space back today!)


Given you already know you cant *measure* 'quality', which is your
subjective views on a systems sound, there is only one way to 'rate' an
amp, and that is to determine how accurately it can reproduce a waveform
on its output that differs only in amplitude from its input (into any
given speakers). There is simply nothing else to measure. All else is,
completely, utterly subjective.


Agreed.



Thus when people talk about how good a piece of kit is relative to any
other, they *must* talk in terms of this accuracy, as to compare
subjective opinions of the kit is just plain meaningless.


Nope - this 'accuracy' you claim is meaningless to (probably) the majority
of people who buy and use amplifiers.


Who knows -
some people may even *like* crossover distortion and class C amps.


Yup, there's no accounting for taste......



The 'valve' vs 'solid state' argument, is, thus, completely moot - the
only measure you can apply is that above, and so you cannot claim an amp
with an inferior output (in those terms) is better.


Depends what you mean 'better' - AFAIAC, if I prefer the sound of a system
with a particular amp in it then it follows that amp is 'better' for me.



wether you like one amp better or not is irrelevant in such a
comparison. Heck, many people choose their amp and speakers based on
their size, or even less tangible traits such as 'coolness'.


Or even with glowing feet which change colour as the temperature rises....



Who TF gives a rat's arse about 'accurate reproduction' if it ain't
*musical*?

Well, Im sure you'll be the first to admit that the best possible sound is
obtained from sitting in front of the musicians.


No. Mistake No.1 with the 'accurists' is to *presume* that 'music consumers'
like me are trying to re-create the real experience. Wrong and futile, no
matter kit you use. Turn up the wick as high as you like, a blast from the
equivalent *real* instrument in your listening room will blow the kit away.
(Been there, done that dozens of times....)


Thus, a 100% accurate reproduction will sound 100% like the real thing.


Correct but meaningless.



Of course if you like to turn the bass up (effectively distorting the
signal) then you may CHOOSE to rate the system as 110% as good as the
original, but you can hardly claim your listening preference is more musical
than the original musicians.


Read my posts - you will be hard put to find I've made any 'claims'
whatsoever, omly expressed my own (clear) preference from time to time.



(unless you listen to something like britney spears or summat)

- I'm in the business of entertaining myself, not supplying
myself with fekkin' laboratory data!

Ditto, which is why, when watching that scene in LoTR where sauron
'explodes' I turn my tone controls from 'neutral' to 'thundering bass'.


Hmmm, thanks for the spoiler! (I ain't sinnit yet!)


Im not about to claim I made the soundtrack more, um, musical, though...

If you like the valve sound, you might as well be honest and admit
you like a good gob of distortion,

Be 'honest'??? What is it with all you SS 'purists'? You want us
valvey types to break down in some sort of confessional hysteria about
our'weaknesses'???

No. not really. Unless it turns you on or something ;-)

just stop saying its 'better' or 'more musical' please (bear in mind this
applies to any nonlinear system, not just nonlinear valve amps).


Another thing with you SS accurist pedants is that you're pretty good at
trying to lay down the law! This is a general audio group which (as I have
said before) caters for any audio gear from MP3 'wris****ches' to recording
studio kit and as such is open to people with differing tastes to express
opinions and state their own preferences. So stop saying 'stop saying'......


You might like it better, but unless it sounds more like the original than
another system, more musical it aint.

Here, have these on me - ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '



On a slightly different track... There is a point to be made in that some
recordings 'sound' is so utterly 'classic' and 'well known' that its
accepted that the recording is supposed to sound like that - eg. a lot of
pop and rock that was recorded onto vinyl. People just expect it to sound
like vinyl, and one way of getting that sound is simply to play records (on
a non-linear amp if thats part of the expected sound, too).

:-)

Now, you're starting to 'get it'......

Clue: Most of the music I like was recorded in the 40s/50s/60s/70s and some
in the 80s. There hasn't been anything that springs to mind in the last 20+
years that has interested me on anything other than the radio (and probably
in the car).

Speaking of which, atm I have Radio 2 droning on and I've just realised I
stopped listening to it some while back - what's the betting the SS amp is
out of the rack by lunchtime?

(See? - That's how it works, it's failed to 'engage' me....)



If only they would - the reality is that they usually come full-on in
some sort of 'apocryphal' way trying desparately to make us see the
'error of our ways'. (I think they feel threatened...)

If you would use words like 'linear' instead of 'SS' or 'sounds better to
me' instead of 'its more musical' I suspect you'd get a much less hostile
reaction.


Again with the *instructions*. How TF can anyone make claims about an amps
'linearity' (a subjective phrase if ever there was one) if they don't know
its characteristics? Wot an utterly meaningless phrase that is - it might
serve to describe the difference between two amps on the lab bench but it
means SFA to anyone in the real world. To say 'I like my amp because it is
linear' conveys less information than someone saying 'I like my amp because
it makes my balls tingle'.......



just don't try telling me SS (amps) sound better
because they don't AFAIAC!! OK?

In many cases the only measurable quantity is better in the SS amp (is
seems its easier to design a basically 'OK' transistor amp, compared to a
basically 'OK' valve amp). Saying it 'sounds better' when its clearly
distorting the sound compared to the original is just wrong.


Sez who? I, for one, use my audio gear to produce an 'end product' - I'm not
try to recreate anything and don't get hung up on the nth degree of
accuracy. I select kit only on the basis that I like that product, you want
to call it names that's your problem.

AFAIC, Lionel Hampton (to name but a few) sounds 'dead right' on my kit -
he might have sounded like **** in real life....

Get the idea?..... ;-)



Simply say you prefer the sound, its not an absolute


The only 'absolute' in this life is death....


and its clearly subjective.


Of course it is, isn't everything?

Another clue: If you get stopped for speeding, just ask the fuzz when was
the last time they had the radar gun calibrated.....

;-)

(Accurists! - Don'tcha just love 'em......!!)

"Ian Molton" wrote


Ok, it looks like a point is being missed.


****ing with rain today so it looks like Ill have to spend the day farting
around with my kit and posting more bollox on the group! Ho hum.....

(Who knows? - Perhaps I'll get some floor space back today!)


Given you already know you cant *measure* 'quality', which is your
subjective views on a systems sound, there is only one way to 'rate' an
amp, and that is to determine how accurately it can reproduce a waveform
on its output that differs only in amplitude from its input (into any
given speakers). There is simply nothing else to measure. All else is,
completely, utterly subjective.


Agreed.



Thus when people talk about how good a piece of kit is relative to any
other, they *must* talk in terms of this accuracy, as to compare
subjective opinions of the kit is just plain meaningless.


Nope - this 'accuracy' you claim is meaningless to (probably) the majority
of people who buy and use amplifiers.


Who knows -
some people may even *like* crossover distortion and class C amps.


Yup, there's no accounting for taste......



The 'valve' vs 'solid state' argument, is, thus, completely moot - the
only measure you can apply is that above, and so you cannot claim an amp
with an inferior output (in those terms) is better.


Depends what you mean 'better' - AFAIAC, if I prefer the sound of a system
with a particular amp in it then it follows that amp is 'better' for me.



wether you like one amp better or not is irrelevant in such a
comparison. Heck, many people choose their amp and speakers based on
their size, or even less tangible traits such as 'coolness'.


Or even with glowing feet which change colour as the temperature rises....



Who TF gives a rat's arse about 'accurate reproduction' if it ain't
*musical*?

Well, Im sure you'll be the first to admit that the best possible sound is
obtained from sitting in front of the musicians.


No. Mistake No.1 with the 'accurists' is to *presume* that 'music consumers'
like me are trying to re-create the real experience. Wrong and futile, no
matter kit you use. Turn up the wick as high as you like, a blast from the
equivalent *real* instrument in your listening room will blow the kit away.
(Been there, done that dozens of times....)


Thus, a 100% accurate reproduction will sound 100% like the real thing.


Correct but meaningless.



Of course if you like to turn the bass up (effectively distorting the
signal) then you may CHOOSE to rate the system as 110% as good as the
original, but you can hardly claim your listening preference is more musical
than the original musicians.


Read my posts - you will be hard put to find I've made any 'claims'
whatsoever, omly expressed my own (clear) preference from time to time.



(unless you listen to something like britney spears or summat)

- I'm in the business of entertaining myself, not supplying
myself with fekkin' laboratory data!

Ditto, which is why, when watching that scene in LoTR where sauron
'explodes' I turn my tone controls from 'neutral' to 'thundering bass'.


Hmmm, thanks for the spoiler! (I ain't sinnit yet!)


Im not about to claim I made the soundtrack more, um, musical, though...

If you like the valve sound, you might as well be honest and admit
you like a good gob of distortion,

Be 'honest'??? What is it with all you SS 'purists'? You want us
valvey types to break down in some sort of confessional hysteria about
our'weaknesses'???

No. not really. Unless it turns you on or something ;-)

just stop saying its 'better' or 'more musical' please (bear in mind this
applies to any nonlinear system, not just nonlinear valve amps).


Another thing with you SS accurist pedants is that you're pretty good at
trying to lay down the law! This is a general audio group which (as I have
said before) caters for any audio gear from MP3 'wris****ches' to recording
studio kit and as such is open to people with differing tastes to express
opinions and state their own preferences. So stop saying 'stop saying'......


You might like it better, but unless it sounds more like the original than
another system, more musical it aint.

Here, have these on me - ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '



On a slightly different track... There is a point to be made in that some
recordings 'sound' is so utterly 'classic' and 'well known' that its
accepted that the recording is supposed to sound like that - eg. a lot of
pop and rock that was recorded onto vinyl. People just expect it to sound
like vinyl, and one way of getting that sound is simply to play records (on
a non-linear amp if thats part of the expected sound, too).

:-)

Now, you're starting to 'get it'......

Clue: Most of the music I like was recorded in the 40s/50s/60s/70s and some
in the 80s. There hasn't been anything that springs to mind in the last 20+
years that has interested me on anything other than the radio (and probably
in the car).

Speaking of which, atm I have Radio 2 droning on and I've just realised I
stopped listening to it some while back - what's the betting the SS amp is
out of the rack by lunchtime?

(See? - That's how it works, it's failed to 'engage' me....)



If only they would - the reality is that they usually come full-on in
some sort of 'apocryphal' way trying desparately to make us see the
'error of our ways'. (I think they feel threatened...)

If you would use words like 'linear' instead of 'SS' or 'sounds better to
me' instead of 'its more musical' I suspect you'd get a much less hostile
reaction.


Again with the *instructions*. How TF can anyone make claims about an amps
'linearity' (a subjective phrase if ever there was one) if they don't know
its characteristics? Wot an utterly meaningless phrase that is - it might
serve to describe the difference between two amps on the lab bench but it
means SFA to anyone in the real world. To say 'I like my amp because it is
linear' conveys less information than someone saying 'I like my amp because
it makes my balls tingle'.......



just don't try telling me SS (amps) sound better
because they don't AFAIAC!! OK?

In many cases the only measurable quantity is better in the SS amp (is
seems its easier to design a basically 'OK' transistor amp, compared to a
basically 'OK' valve amp). Saying it 'sounds better' when its clearly
distorting the sound compared to the original is just wrong.


Sez who? I, for one, use my audio gear to produce an 'end product' - I'm not
try to recreate anything and don't get hung up on the nth degree of
accuracy. I select kit only on the basis that I like that product, you want
to call it names that's your problem.

AFAIC, Lionel Hampton (to name but a few) sounds 'dead right' on my kit -
he might have sounded like **** in real life....

Get the idea?..... ;-)



Simply say you prefer the sound, its not an absolute


The only 'absolute' in this life is death....


and its clearly subjective.


Of course it is, isn't everything?

Another clue: If you get stopped for speeding, just ask the fuzz when was
the last time they had the radar gun calibrated.....

;-)

(Accurists! - Don'tcha just love 'em......!!)

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:51:32 +0000 (UTC)
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:

The amps PSU has nothing to do with it, as any effects there will mean
that the voltages at the speaker terminals are *not* the same.

fair comment.

perhaps this is why speaker wire makes a difference - maybe they were
right after all!

It doesn't, dood!

Im almost certain I put a smiley in there originally...

Been there, done that. Nice pleasant sound, even on ****e recordings,
hence not high fidelity. Also softens really great recordings, so
****e sound, basically.

you're as bad as Keith... you say 'nice pleasant sound' and '****e
sound' referring to the same thing, in the same paragraph!

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:51:32 +0000 (UTC)
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:

The amps PSU has nothing to do with it, as any effects there will mean
that the voltages at the speaker terminals are *not* the same.

fair comment.

perhaps this is why speaker wire makes a difference - maybe they were
right after all!

It doesn't, dood!

Im almost certain I put a smiley in there originally...

Been there, done that. Nice pleasant sound, even on ****e recordings,
hence not high fidelity. Also softens really great recordings, so
****e sound, basically.

you're as bad as Keith... you say 'nice pleasant sound' and '****e
sound' referring to the same thing, in the same paragraph!

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:51:32 +0000 (UTC)
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:

The amps PSU has nothing to do with it, as any effects there will mean
that the voltages at the speaker terminals are *not* the same.

fair comment.

perhaps this is why speaker wire makes a difference - maybe they were
right after all!

It doesn't, dood!

Im almost certain I put a smiley in there originally...


You did.



Been there, done that. Nice pleasant sound, even on ****e recordings,
hence not high fidelity. Also softens really great recordings, so
****e sound, basically.

you're as bad as Keith... you say 'nice pleasant sound' and '****e
sound' referring to the same thing, in the same paragraph!


He does, doesn't he?

:-)

Wouldn't have been so bad if he had said summat like 'linear, yet strangely
non-linear' in the same para, I suppose!

(We should mebbe cut him a little slack - check the time he posted, I'm sure
there's blobs of boiled eggy on my copy of that post..... :-)

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 07:51:32 +0000 (UTC)
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:

The amps PSU has nothing to do with it, as any effects there will mean
that the voltages at the speaker terminals are *not* the same.

fair comment.

perhaps this is why speaker wire makes a difference - maybe they were
right after all!

It doesn't, dood!

Im almost certain I put a smiley in there originally...


You did.



Been there, done that. Nice pleasant sound, even on ****e recordings,
hence not high fidelity. Also softens really great recordings, so
****e sound, basically.

you're as bad as Keith... you say 'nice pleasant sound' and '****e
sound' referring to the same thing, in the same paragraph!


He does, doesn't he?

:-)

Wouldn't have been so bad if he had said summat like 'linear, yet strangely
non-linear' in the same para, I suppose!

(We should mebbe cut him a little slack - check the time he posted, I'm sure
there's blobs of boiled eggy on my copy of that post..... :-)

Keith G wrote:

Been there, done that. Nice pleasant sound, even on ****e recordings,
hence not high fidelity. Also softens really great recordings, so
****e sound, basically.

Hmmm, how does that work - both a 'Nice pleasant sound' and '****e
sound'......???

Nice, pleasant, inoffensive, muffled ****e is what comes out of my DVD
player.

My DAC, being clearer and more detailed, is less forgiving and, therefore,
better.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
On webcam: Black Cat In Coal Cellar

Keith G wrote:

Been there, done that. Nice pleasant sound, even on ****e recordings,
hence not high fidelity. Also softens really great recordings, so
****e sound, basically.

Hmmm, how does that work - both a 'Nice pleasant sound' and '****e
sound'......???

Nice, pleasant, inoffensive, muffled ****e is what comes out of my DVD
player.

My DAC, being clearer and more detailed, is less forgiving and, therefore,
better.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
On webcam: Black Cat In Coal Cellar

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 10:45:01 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

Given you already know you cant *measure* 'quality', which is your
subjective views on a systems sound, there is only one way to 'rate' an
amp, and that is to determine how accurately it can reproduce a waveform
on its output that differs only in amplitude from its input (into any
given speakers). There is simply nothing else to measure. All else is,
completely, utterly subjective.

Agreed.

In that case, WTF are you going on and on about?

Thus when people talk about how good a piece of kit is relative to any
other, they *must* talk in terms of this accuracy, as to compare
subjective opinions of the kit is just plain meaningless.

Nope - this 'accuracy' you claim is meaningless to (probably) the majority
of people who buy and use amplifiers.

The *VAST* majority of amplifiers are bought by people who neither know nor care about accuracy *or* subjective opinions - they probably couildnt tell the difference between class A and class C in a blind test anyway.

Out of the remaining sales, the majority are probably bought as expensive d*ck extensions.

Out of the tiny number of sales left after that, I'd bet the majority are bought to try and reproduce a recording as accurately as possible.

Very few, I'll bet, are bought to deliberately change the sound.

Depends what you mean 'better' - AFAIAC, if I prefer the sound of a system
with a particular amp in it then it follows that amp is 'better' for me.

No, it means you prefer it.

If I had two pairs of kitchen scales, one accurate to 10g and the other to 0.5g, but the 0.5g one was asthetically ugly, it would STILL be the better pair of kitchen scales, despite that you might prefer the less accurate device.

And theres only one measure of how good an amp really is, in real terms.

Who TF gives a rat's arse about 'accurate reproduction' if it ain't
*musical*?

Well, Im sure you'll be the first to admit that the best possible sound is
obtained from sitting in front of the musicians.

No. Mistake No.1 with the 'accurists' is to *presume* that 'music consumers'
like me are trying to re-create the real experience.

Thats what music reproduction is about. If you want playback or to play with the sound, feel free. but most people seem to want to listen to the music asit was 'supposed' to be (how they know their kit does the job is beyond me)

At least if you start with a decent linear system, you can go back to a flat reference once you finish playing with the tone controls...

Read my posts - you will be hard put to find I've made any 'claims'
whatsoever, omly expressed my own (clear) preference from time to time.

just stop telling me how musical your system sounds - for all I know you could well be tone deaf. its meaningless.

Ditto, which is why, when watching that scene in LoTR where sauron
'explodes' I turn my tone controls from 'neutral' to 'thundering bass'.

Hmmm, thanks for the spoiler! (I ain't sinnit yet!)

I refuse to feel guilty for revealing the *beginning* of a film thats been out for over a year.

Another thing with you SS accurist pedants is that you're pretty good at
trying to lay down the law! This is a general audio group which (as I have
said before) caters for any audio gear from MP3 'wris****ches' to recording
studio kit and as such is open to people with differing tastes to express
opinions and state their own preferences. So stop saying 'stop saying'......

It applies to all those categories. you cant use terms like 'musical' 'sweet' 'wooly' or anything else wholly subjective as a basis for comparison. Sure they might convey some idea about the sound, but one mans 'sweet' is another mans 'muffled and dull'

You might like it better, but unless it sounds more like the original than
another system, more musical it aint.

Here, have these on me - ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '

Where in that last sentence would you have me put them ? I can find one spot, but thats not even in a 'real' word.

Now, you're starting to 'get it'......

Always did.

I'll add, though, that you can make a recording of all your sweet, warm, honey soaked, or whatever, gear, complete with vinyl pops and crackles, and crummy bass, and you can put it on a CD and play it through a nice linear amp into good speakers, and it will sound the same.

Again with the *instructions*. How TF can anyone make claims about an amps
'linearity' (a subjective phrase if ever there was one)

Linearity is directly measurable. you dont get a lot more objective.

To say 'I like my amp because it is
linear' conveys less information than someone saying 'I like my amp because
it makes my balls tingle'.......

You might find it sounds better if you connect the output terminals to your speakers though...

Seriously though...

One says 'I like my amp because it doesnt alter the sound', the other say 'I like my amp because I like my amp'. Which truely says more?

(Accurists! - Don'tcha just love 'em......!!)

nice watches, so Im told...

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.