What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:55:13 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Well, we both know that with its max SPL rating of
something like 137 dB, the diaphragm mostly never does
that.

However, its 13.7 dBu maximum undistorted output might
just clip some lesser line inputs! ;-)


With self-powered mics I frequently use them straight on
the line-in sockets; I've made a few adaptors just for
that job. Never been anywhere loud enough to overload
them though - not sure I'd particularly want to either.

I have a 4 channel phantom power box that would do the job.

But there's plenty of things you can record into line-in
with about 20dB of headroom left. That makes for a
perfectly acceptable recording in my books.

I see no problems if the peak levels are up there.

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


OK, here we go - this is the setup:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Setup%2001.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Setup%2002.JPG

and here is the track:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...,%20SE1As).mp3

...and here's the Lowther track again for direct
comparison (if anyone else is interested):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Track10.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...0In%20Love.mp3

Interesting to ABX, level matched.

I hate to sound like an ingrate but the Ruarks and their associated amps
combined to add fairly massive amounts of even order distortion - no doubt
10%. It is audible, man is it audible! Note what happens to the sound of the
triangle.

The nonlinear distortion is also hihgly visible in a visual display
(CoolEdit). The source material being hihgly clipped, has very symmetrical
tops and bottoms. After a trip through the amp+speakers, it is very
asymmetrical.

If you like your percussion extra crunchy, this might be your preference. I
like my percussion crisp, if that is how the origional recording is.

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote


Interesting to ABX, level matched.

I hate to sound like an ingrate but the Ruarks and their associated amps
combined to add fairly massive amounts of even order distortion - no doubt
10%. It is audible, man is it audible! Note what happens to the sound of
the triangle.

The nonlinear distortion is also hihgly visible in a visual display
(CoolEdit). The source material being hihgly clipped, has very symmetrical
tops and bottoms. After a trip through the amp+speakers, it is very
asymmetrical.

If you like your percussion extra crunchy, this might be your preference.
I like my percussion crisp, if that is how the origional recording is.



OK, to round it off, I have posted a couple of (identical?) 30sec extracts
from the original WAVs to remove any 'MP3 spuriae' and have more clearly
titled them:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav


But have a care Arny, mon brave - if I read the above right (?) and you are
saying you prefer the Fidelio treble (as I do) then it's a vote for triodes
and horns over the 'normal' 2-way speakers on the Sony SS AV amp under the
telly in this pic:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Setup%2001.JPG

(The Pioneer DVDP is with the projector - not in the pic...)

Bass is not the issue here - there never was any suggestion (from me) that a
pair of FR horns would ever 'outbass' a normal speaker with 215mm (Focal)
drivers and the fact that the 'lite bass' of the Fidelios suits my small
listening room better is also neither here nor there in this comparison....

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Keith G" wrote


OK, to round it off, I have posted a couple of (identical?) 30sec extracts
from the original WAVs to remove any 'MP3 spuriae' and have more clearly
titled them:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav





Strikes me that those clips also serve to illustrate my recent remarks about
'speed and immediacy' quite well - AFAIAC, the Fidelios demonstrate clear
superiority in both these aspects, making the Ruarks seem quite ponderous by
comparison....??

No-one else see (hear) it....??

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:
If the harmonics from a musical instrument were unimportant then
top C from a piano would sound exactly the same as from a violin.
Of course perhaps they do on your setup...

Didn't take you long, did it...??

Perfectly valid comment given your love of devices which alter the
harmonic content of a signal.

You can't have it both ways, dear boy. ;-)


snip silly sig yet again...

That's what the sig separator is there for - if you know how to
configure your newsreader.



I've got *configure* my newsreader to delete your silly sig?

I don't think so....

A decent one would be configured so as default. You seem to manage to
avoid top posting, though, despite what your newsreader tells you to do.



Really? That'll be Rule Number what from the 'Plowman's Intergalactic
Guide To Pub Lunches And How It Is'....??

Here's one from my very own wipe-clean, laminated plastic set of 'How To
Scrape By Without Having To Get Too Far In' handy hint cards:

No. 3 - "Try to resist grabbing *every single* opportunity to make
yourself look a tit and you'll probably win greater respect from your
fellow man/other posters in this group....!!"

So you don't think you've made yourself look a fool by saying harmonics
don't matter? Because I've got news for you.



Actually not - there isn't *anything* you think you might know that I
need to know from you.

Fine. Then why waste time replying to this post? Stick with your strange
ideas about sound. And your flowery descriptions.

(Hope that isn't too *devastating* for you?? :-)

You seem to have the idea *your* opinion of people is important to them?
I've got news for you.



They are the very essence of
music. Without them it would be pretty boring.



Tell you what - could you give me a little notice of the things I'm
about to say and I'll get some snappy replies roughed out in
readiness....???



(Asitappens, if you had been following today's fun and games with my
recordings of *both* my triode/horn and ss/ordinary speaker setups you'd
have maybe twigged I've already *got it* both ways....?? ;-)

I've not been following your latest blog, no. Haven't got the time to
waste.



Ooh dear, let's not *kid* ourselves, shall we....??

You kid yourself all the time, surely?

--
*I pretend to work. - they pretend to pay me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

In article om, Andy
Evans wrote:
My impression is that making a single driver speaker imposes such
demanding constraints on the design and use as to be rather limiting.
But then my

reaction is to prefer (phased array) electrostatics to cone-and-box
speakers, anyway. JL

[snip]

I just about get away with the frequency response - 40hz is there, and
it goes up to 13k or so.

These days I'd probably miss below 40Hz rather more than I'd miss above
13k. :-)

However the problem with 'full range' drivers tends to be doppler intermod
as well as lack of ability to both shift a lot of air (for LF) and move
fast enough for HF. Plus the problems with radiation patterns which Arny
has referred to.

The unit may well work better when it's not supplying the bass
frequencies, but then I'd need a crossover and I am very wary of
capacitors in the signal path - I really don't like them. I could go
active - that would be a solution (though complex)

....and would involve capacitors unless you are still full-range driving all
units. :-)

Whenever I compared caps I found that - provided I avoided obviously daft
choices like cheap electrolytics of too low/variable a value - no-one could
actually tell one cap from another purely on sound. Nor could then tell
them from d.c. coupling if the roll-offs were well out of the 20-20k range.
So I stopped worring about that 20+ years ago. I suspect that asking a
single driver to work full range is likely to produce rather more audible
effects unless your taste in music is quite limited.


- but I find I can
live with the sound I have. It's not perfect but it's extremely clear
and detailed and the tone is fine. I don't know what the term is for a
single driver - coherent maybe?

'coherent' has a specific set of meanings in engineering. It also applies
to arrays or sets of drivers. Although a small single driver speaker mean
that the nominal source position for the radiation varies less with
frequency than conventional multiway systems, and this may aid stereo
imaging. So in that sense frequency-invarient spatial coherence may be a
virtue of such systems if you can live with the probable other drawbacks.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:
If the harmonics from a musical instrument were unimportant then
top C from a piano would sound exactly the same as from a violin.
Of course perhaps they do on your setup...

Didn't take you long, did it...??

Perfectly valid comment given your love of devices which alter the
harmonic content of a signal.

You can't have it both ways, dear boy. ;-)


snip silly sig yet again...

That's what the sig separator is there for - if you know how to
configure your newsreader.



I've got *configure* my newsreader to delete your silly sig?

I don't think so....

A decent one would be configured so as default. You seem to manage to
avoid top posting, though, despite what your newsreader tells you to do.



Really? That'll be Rule Number what from the 'Plowman's Intergalactic
Guide To Pub Lunches And How It Is'....??

Here's one from my very own wipe-clean, laminated plastic set of 'How
To
Scrape By Without Having To Get Too Far In' handy hint cards:

No. 3 - "Try to resist grabbing *every single* opportunity to make
yourself look a tit and you'll probably win greater respect from your
fellow man/other posters in this group....!!"

So you don't think you've made yourself look a fool by saying harmonics
don't matter? Because I've got news for you.



Actually not - there isn't *anything* you think you might know that I
need to know from you.

Fine. Then why waste time replying to this post? Stick with your strange
ideas about sound. And your flowery descriptions.

(Hope that isn't too *devastating* for you?? :-)

You seem to have the idea *your* opinion of people is important to them?
I've got news for you.



They are the very essence of
music. Without them it would be pretty boring.



Tell you what - could you give me a little notice of the things I'm
about to say and I'll get some snappy replies roughed out in
readiness....???



(Asitappens, if you had been following today's fun and games with my
recordings of *both* my triode/horn and ss/ordinary speaker setups
you'd
have maybe twigged I've already *got it* both ways....?? ;-)

I've not been following your latest blog, no. Haven't got the time to
waste.



Ooh dear, let's not *kid* ourselves, shall we....??

You kid yourself all the time, surely?

--
*I pretend to work. - they pretend to pay me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.




Buck your ideas up matey - you're like a whiney little snot mithering
endlessly because he can't get his own way.....

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Keith G" wrote in message


OK, to round it off, I have posted a couple of
(identical?) 30sec extracts from the original WAVs to
remove any 'MP3 spuriae' and have more clearly titled
them:
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav

Very different samples from before, even though the music is a subset of
what came before. They also showed up rather precisely level-matched.

But have a care Arny, mon brave - if I read the above
right (?) and you are saying you prefer the Fidelio
treble (as I do) then it's a vote for triodes and horns

No, I still prefer the Fidelios sample, and I still hear a crunching sort
distortion on the Ruarks sample, instead of the more natural crisp sound of
undistorted percussion.

I also analyzed the two samples technically, and can see a big hole around
2KHz, and peakiness around 18 KHz in the Ruarks sample.

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

These days I'd probably miss below 40Hz rather more than I'd miss above
13k. :-)

I'm sure you're not alone! I'm a particular case since I'm a bass
player and as they say "the cobblers children have no shoes"


However the problem with 'full range' drivers tends to be doppler intermod
as well as lack of ability to both shift a lot of air (for LF) and move
fast enough for HF. Plus the problems with radiation patterns which Arny
has referred to.

Yes - doppler intermod is an issue. I've experimented with cutting out
the lower bass by using straws in the port - the mids do clean up, but
then the bass goes (rather predictably).


The unit may well work better when it's not supplying the bass
frequencies, but then I'd need a crossover and I am very wary of
capacitors in the signal path - I really don't like them. I could go
active - that would be a solution (though complex)

...and would involve capacitors unless you are still full-range driving all
units. :-)

Yes, but in this case they are small ones and one could use high
quality ones like teflon or polystyrene. That makes a difference.


Whenever I compared caps I found that - provided I avoided obviously daft
choices like cheap electrolytics of too low/variable a value - no-one could
actually tell one cap from another purely on sound.

I went through a few months of capacitor testing, and the teflon or
polystyrenes sounded consistently better to my ears, so since then I've
used them for all small values, and polypropylene for all larger
values. I prefer transformers for coupling, sound wise. It looks as if
my ears are more sensitive to some things than others - I can ignore
the bass end in ways that others wouldn't tolerate, but I pick up small
details in timbre. All this within the problem that I mostly work
alone so rarely have the ability to blind test stuff - I welcome the
chance whenever it presents itself and do tests with friends for that
reason.


'coherent' has a specific set of meanings in engineering. It also applies
to arrays or sets of drivers. Although a small single driver speaker mean
that the nominal source position for the radiation varies less with
frequency than conventional multiway systems, and this may aid stereo
imaging. So in that sense frequency-invarient spatial coherence may be a
virtue of such systems if you can live with the probable other drawbacks.

That sounds very much like what I'm experiencing (together with any
advantages accrued by no crossover, and all attendant problems as
discussed).

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

What's your view of speaker crossovers?
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


OK, to round it off, I have posted a couple of
(identical?) 30sec extracts from the original WAVs to
remove any 'MP3 spuriae' and have more clearly titled
them:
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...%20Extract.wav

Very different samples from before, even though the music is a subset of
what came before.


Sure, the previous MP3s were made from the same WAVs as the above extracts
(contrary to what one or two here seem to think, I have never *knowingly*
posted BS in this group! ;-) but your comment is an interesting one - that
MP3s do seem to represent a considerably 'altered state' from the original,
even though I think they can sound perfectly fine in the right circumstances
if the bitrate is high enough!


They also showed up rather precisely level-matched.


That would be more by luck than judgement - the levels were set by 'eye' but
it is a lot easier now on my cracking little (Yankee) tube pre's which have
the usual two ranges (Norm and +20dB) and which give me 2x almost a full
rotation's worth of adjustment....



But have a care Arny, mon brave - if I read the above
right (?) and you are saying you prefer the Fidelio
treble (as I do) then it's a vote for triodes and horns

No, I still prefer the Fidelios sample, and I still hear a crunching sort
distortion on the Ruarks sample, instead of the more natural crisp sound
of undistorted percussion.


I perhaps should have mentioned there was an SS pre driving the 300B amp
(beefs the sound up to ridiculous levels if/when required and gives me
remote volume control!!), but I think the comparison of the upper limits of
(certain/most/all??) FR drivers and 'normal tweeters' are one of those
situations where the 'appearances on paper' and the actual sounds produced
don't necessarily line up....



I also analyzed the two samples technically, and can see a big hole around
2KHz, and peakiness around 18 KHz in the Ruarks sample.


Interesting. When I bought the Paladins they were at a very good price
(then) from one of the shops in town, but the boxes were marked 'seconds'. I
phoned Ruark and the chap there looked them up - the shop had bought a job
lot which were all marked 'seconds', but mine had been out on exhibition
work is all. One thing the guy said was that there was a note 'in the book'
that one of the crossovers was 'blackened' (??) - I asked if it was likely
to be a problem, he said no....(??)

In any case, the crossover point is 2.8k, as can be seen from the manual:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/paladin.JPG


Continuing my 'revisit' of them, I was running them quite loud earlier today
and every upright surface in the place was thrumming, but I think I have
evolved too far away from that type of sound to enjoy them now - they do a
super (invisible) job on the telly and movies (*and* match the nearby
piano), so I think they have found their rightful place!

:-)